{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/sflovers/102", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "sflovers", "thread": { "id": 102, "subject": "Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff", "messages": 15, "voices": 13, "first": "1992-10-02T16:48:11+00:00", "last": "1992-10-06T14:40:03+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jonathan A. Kung", "address": "joak at ocf.berkeley.edu" }, "date": "1992-10-02T16:48:11+00:00", "subject": "Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I remember a thread from a month or so back where Wolfe's stuff was being\ndiscussed, and various people claimed to know most of what was going on.\nWell, I am not one of those people. If anyone could e-mail me or post on\nthe following, I will surely die of gratitude. My brain is under too much\nstrain as it is.\n\nThere may be SPOILERS below.\n\n1. Who Severian's mother is. I have a hunch that's she's Dorcas, tortured\n by the Guild for some reason, so they took Severian in.\n2. Who that servant that ran away after passing the warning note in the\n inn by the Sanguinary Fields is. Is he the one that married Dorcas at\n the end?\n3. That old man Dorcas was mourning at the end of the Book - was that her\n husband?\n4. That business with the aliens from the other universe - in which\n universe does Book take place, and in which ones does Urth take place,\n and how are they related.\n5. The first Claw that Severian got - was it really \"magical\"? Or did it\n glow because of previous contact with the past Severian? Or did it\n glow because Severian wanted it to?\n6. Why I always fell asleep after reading every hundred pages or so.\n7. Is Severian the first Autarch with his kind of memory? I had at first\n thought that each Autarch had perfect memory, and each one would wait\n until the next person with perfect memory came along, and then groom\n him for the Autarchy.\n8. Book takes place in the VERY far future, right?\n9. Was the Citadel originally a \"space ship\"? There were some references\n to \"cabins\" for the journeyman with \"portholes\", and Severian once\n says, I think, how wonderful it would be if the tower just blasted off\n into space like it was meant to.\n10. What happened during the time between Shadow, I think, and the next\n part, at the Wall, that separated Severian and Jonas from the rest?\n11. Did that guy who helped Severian and A-wozname and Dorcas out in the\n lake of the dead (or whatever it was called) die in that episode at the\n end of one of the books with the witches and Apu-Punchau?\n12. What the HELL is the deal with Apu-Punchau? I don't think I can get it\n straight without a bit of help...\n13. Typhon - why didn't he remember Severian's face from before and kill\n him when he had the chance the second time (for Typhon) they met?\n14. What was the deal with the fights in space on the ship that sailed\n between universes? I was kind of unclear on this (along with\n everything else I'm asking about).\n15. Whose crypt does Severian lie in? It's from one of his past lives,\n right?\n16. Severian dies several times, but is cloned by the Hierogrammates, or\n something, right?\n17. Terminus Est was originally the property of that one guard in the past,\n right?\n\nWell, that's all I can think of or remember right now, I'll probably have\nmore later. Maybe I'll reread the books.\n\nWas anyone else impressed by the scope of these novels? It was neat how\nyou get to see Typhon's mountain in progress after you see the finished\nproduct - the sheer scale is impressive, yet the Citadel dwarfs that\nproject, and the Wall is even larger than I can really picture being built.\n\nYeesh, my mind just shorted out, so I guess I should go.\n\nJon Kung" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ethan A Merritt", "address": "merritt at provolone.bchem.washington.edu" }, "date": "1992-10-02T17:48:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "joak at ocf.berkeley.edu (Jonathan A. Kung) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1. Who Severian's mother is. I have a hunch that she's Dorcas,\n tortured by the Guild for some reason, so they took Severian in." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, Dorcas would appear to be Severian's mother. I don't recall whether\nthere was specific indication that she was tortured by the Guild other than\nthe general explanation of how apprentices were often acquired." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. Who that servant that ran away after passing the warning note\n in the inn by the Sanguinary Fields is. Is he the one that\n married Dorcas at the end?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He says in the note (in regard to Dorcas) \"You are my mother come again\" -\nso the implication is that he would be Severian's brother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. That old man Dorcas was mourning at the end of the Book - was\n that her husband?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I presume so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4. That business with the aliens from the other universe - in which\n universe does Book take place, and in which ones does Urth take\n place, and how are they related." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\t\nHuh? I don't think I understand the question. All the action in BotNS\ntakes place in \"this\" universe. In \"Urth\" Severian travels to the \"other\"\nuniverse and returns. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by \"aliens from\nthe other universe\". I believe that all the \"aliens\" in BotNS are from\n\"this\" universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5. The first Claw that Severian got - was it really \"magical\"? Or\n did it glow because of previous contact with the past Severian?\n Or did it glow because Severian wanted it to?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tenses will do you in here. It's past contact was with a future Severian.\nBut Severian'a access to the power of the New Sun seems to transcend linear\ntime, so I think you could explain it either way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "6. Why I always fell asleep after reading every hundred pages or so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Too much to think about???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "7. Is Severian the first Autarch with his kind of memory? I had at\n first thought that each Autarch had perfect memory, and each one\n would wait until the next person with perfect memory came along,\n and then groom him for the Autarchy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting question. I pass on that one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "8. Book takes place in the VERY far future, right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can't really say. As someone pointed out earlier, the decay of good 'ol\nSol is artificially induced, so the natural lifetime of the star is not\nrelevant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "9. Was the Citadel originally a \"space ship\"? There were some\n references to \"cabins\" for the journeyman with \"portholes\", and\n Severian once says, I think, how wonderful it would be if the\n tower just blasted off into space like it was meant to." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Definitely. This is abundantly clear in a number of places." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "12. What the HELL is the deal with Apu-Punchau? I don't think I can\n get it straight without a bit of help..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[Direct SPOILER ahead]\n\nThis is part of the narrative in \"Urth\". Severian returns from the other\nuniverse into the past of this one, where he lives as Apu-punchau. However,\ndue to time loops he ends up being present more than once at the same\ntime/space coordinate. It is explained that this can cause multiple\n\"copies\" of the personality so duplicated to merge into a single copy. The\n\"copy\" of Severian which continues on into the rest of the narrative has\nabsorbed the Apu-punchau copy as I read it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "13. Typhon - why didn't he remember Severian's face from before and\n kill him when he had the chance the second time (for Typhon) they\n met?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What makes you think he didn't? Typhon certainly seemed to think he would\ngain something substantial from control of Severian. He certainly made\nbelievable threats to kill Severian if he didn't capitulate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "14. What was the deal with the fights in space on the ship that sailed\n between universes? I was kind of unclear on this (along with\n everything else I'm asking about)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well some of them were instigated by Abbaia's agents in an attempt to kill\nSeverian. Others may just be ongoing politics as usual." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "15. Whose crypt does Severian lie in? It's from one of his past lives,\n right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "16. Severian dies several times, but is cloned by the Hierogrammates,\n or something, right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again I'm not sure exactly what your question is. If you mean are\nSeverian's multiple lives due to cloning then no, I don't think this is the\ncase. If you mean did Severian die in the ship travelling to the other\nuniverse (Yesod is it? I can't keep the two names straight) then I think\nthe answer is yes, or almost, but whether his resurrection was courtesy of\nZak or his own power I can't quite follow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "17. Terminus Est was originally the property of that one guard in the\n past, right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You have finally hit a totally new one to me! What guard????\n\nEthan A Merritt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jonathan A. Kung", "address": "joak at ocf.berkeley.edu" }, "date": "1992-10-02T18:42:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "merritt at u.washington.edu writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "4. That business with the aliens from the other universe - in which\n universe does Book take place, and in which ones does Urth take\n place, and how are they related." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Huh? I don't think I understand the question. All the action in BotNS\ntakes place in \"this\" universe. In \"Urth\" Severian travels to the \"other\"\nuniverse and returns. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by \"aliens from\nthe other universe\". I believe that all the \"aliens\" in BotNS are from\n\"this\" universe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't understand the question? No problem; neither do I. I guess I\nthought that the Hierogrammates (is that them, the trio with names like\nOssiforous or whatever) were from the next universe, come back to help\nSeverian because of something he did in his \"first\", original non-NewSun\nincarnation that passed Zak's test and asked that an alternate Severian be\ncreated that would become the New Sun. (Ow. Sharp pains in my head.) If\nthey are indeed from Severian's birth-universe (what's the name, Briah? or\nis that the other one?), then I was in error." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "7. Is Severian the first Autarch with his kind of memory? I had at\n first thought that each Autarch had perfect memory, and each one\n would wait until the next person with perfect memory came along,\n and then groom him for the Autarchy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting question. I pass on that one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I should clarify: the reason I had that notion was that the Autarchy goes\nback a long way - that means a LOT of Autarchs. Even if they took that\nspecial alzabo drug (I think it was alzabo) to fully get the memories of\neveryone before, there is no way that kind of info could be preserved\nwithout at least some degradation without Severian's type of memory.\nHowever, there is a bit of suggestion that this is not what happens - that\nSeverian kept most of his personality after taking the drug because of the\nother Autarchs' diminishment over the years." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "13. Typhon -- why didn't he remember Severian's face from before and\n kill him when he had the chance the second time (for Typhon) they\n met?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What makes you think he didn't? Typhon certainly seemed to think he would\ngain something substantial from control of Severian. He certainly made\nbelievable threats to kill Severian if he didn't capitulate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh. No reason. Careless reading, I suppose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "15. Whose crypt does Severian lie in? It's from one of his past lives,\n right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But which one? Do we know? A post-Apu-punchau identity?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "16. Severian dies several times, but is cloned by the Hierogrammates,\n or something, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again I'm not sure exactly what your question is. If you mean are\nSeverian's multiple lives due to cloning then no, I don't think this is\nthe case. If you mean did Severian die in the ship travelling to the\nother universe (Yesod is it? I can't keep the two names straight) then I\nthink the answer is yes, or almost, but whether his resurrection was\ncourtesy of Zak or his own power I can't quite follow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He also died as Apu-punchau, and awoke in his tomb, I think, and that's\nwhen I think the image of Master Malrubius comes again and talks to him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "17. Terminus Est was originally the property of that one guard in the\n past, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have finally hit a totally new one to me! What guard????" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When Severian, in Urth, has travelled back to the past and become the\nConciliator, and is captured by some of Typhon's men, he is taken\nto the future-Tortuerer's Guild and imprisoned. One of the guards\nthere has a long sword described as having a square head.\n\nAnd here're two more:\n18. Did the Green Man ever fulfill his obligation to Severian? Remember\n that his rescuing of Severian from the pyramid structure (?) was\n regarded by the Green Man as coincidental, so he still had to help\n Severian later on. Is his obligation perhaps fulfilled when Severian\n is presented with the branching futures: the cold glacier one and the\n Green Man's?\n\n19. Was the jungle area in the Garden with the three people, one woman, a\n man, and a naked man, in the hut an instance of time-travel? I\n remember reading that Severian noticed that those people seemed to be\n ignoring or at least trying not to notice himself and Agia.\n \nJon Kung" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l DanehyOakes", "address": "djdaneh at pbhyc.pacbell.com" }, "date": "1992-10-02T19:10:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Significant (in both senses) SPOILERS ahead:\n\njoak at ocf.berkeley.edu (Jonathan A. Kung) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1. Who Severian's mother is. I have a hunch that's she's Dorcas,\n tortured by the Guild for some reason, so they took Severian in." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would seem to be the case. She's certainly his mother, and, given how\nthe Guild acquires 'prentices, the other is a logical deduction: but logic\ndoes not always seem to apply.\n\nGene _will_ have his little mysteries (like the name of the narrator in THE\nFIFTH HEAD. . .: when I figured _that_ one out, I laughed for at least five\nminutes.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. Who that servant that ran away after passing the warning note in the\n inn by the Sanguinary Fields is. Is he the one that married Dorcas at\n the end?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't believe so, no. I believe he's her grandson." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. That old man Dorcas was mourning at the end of the Book - was that\n her husband?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Most likely... which would make him Severian's father, no?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4. That business with the aliens from the other universe - in which\n universe does Book take place, and in which ones does Urth take place,\n and how are they related." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They all take place in the same Universe (except the parts of URTH that\ntake place in Heaven): and it is either the distant future or the distant\npast of our world. Remember the \"painting\" of the \"warrior\": it's Neil\nArmstrong on the Moon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5. The first Claw that Severian got - was it really \"magical\"? Or did\n it glow because of previous contact with the past Severian? Or did it\n glow because Severian wanted it to?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes.\n\nGee, that's not helpful, is it?\n\nOkay: Severian *is* the New Sun, or at least *a* New Sun. The past\nSeverian is/was the present Severian, and both are/were the Conciliator, at\nleast briefly. The Claw has no real significance in itself, but (like all\nsymbols) has a great deal of significance to those who invest it therewith." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "6. Why I always fell asleep after reading every hundred pages or so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the same reason you would tend to fall asleep if you tried to eat an\nentire chocolate truffle cake at once: too rich, too much. Overload.\nBrain shutdown." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "7. Is Severian the first Autarch with his kind of memory? I had at first\n thought that each Autarch had perfect memory, and each one would wait\n until the next person with perfect memory came along, and then groom\n him for the Autarchy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's no particular reason to believe that other Autarchs have had\nSeverian's peculiar memory. (BTW, note that Severian's memory is not as\nperfect as he believes it to be. There are hints about this.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "8. Book takes place in the VERY far future, right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. Or maybe the VERY distant past. Or both." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "9. Was the Citadel originally a \"space ship\"? There were some references\n to \"cabins\" for the journeyman with \"portholes\", and Severian once\n says, I think, how wonderful it would be if the tower just blasted off\n into space like it was meant to." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Citadel was not *a* spaceship. The individual *towers* were, and may\nwell still be, space ships." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "10. What happened during the time between Shadow, I think, and the next\n part, at the Wall, that separated Severian and Jonas from the rest?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Read CLAW more carefully. It's in there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "11. Did that guy who helped Severian and A-wozname and Dorcas out in the\n lake of the dead (or whatever it was called) die in that episode at\n the end of one of the books with the witches and Apu- Punchau?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Or maybe that should be \"maybe.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "12. What the HELL is the deal with Apu-Punchau? I don't think I can get\n it straight without a bit of help..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Try the afterword to URTH; that will help a great deal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "13. Typhon - why didn't he remember Severian's face from before and kill\n him when he had the chance the second time (for Typhon) they met?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He does and he does. In his own inimitable way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "14. What was the deal with the fights in space on the ship that sailed\n between universes? I was kind of unclear on this (along with\n everything else I'm asking about)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So was Severian, and he's your only source of information. Take it as it\nis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "15. Whose crypt does Severian lie in? It's from one of his past lives,\n right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What past lives? They're all one. Follow the subjective time lines..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "16. Severian dies several times, but is cloned by the Hierogrammates,\n or something, right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "17. Terminus Est was originally the property of that one guard in the\n past, right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hadn't thought of that. Good reason for me to re-read these...\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ethan Merritt", "address": "merritt at milton.u.washington.edu" }, "date": "1992-10-03T04:37:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "joak at ocf.berkeley.edu (Jonathan A. Kung) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't understand the question? No problem; neither do I. I guess I\nthought that the Hierogrammates (is that them, the trio with names like\nOssiforous or whatever) were from the next universe, come back to help\nSeverian because of something he did in his \"first\", original non-NewSun\nincarnation that passed Zak's test and asked that an alternate Severian be\ncreated that would become the New Sun. (Ow. Sharp pains in my head.) If\nthey are indeed from Severian's birth-universe (what's the name, Briah? or\nis that the other one?), then I was in error." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I haven't read the Sun books for a while, so I may misremeber, but... I\nbelieve that Ossipago, Familulus, and Bar??? were busy living backwards in\ntime (like Merlin in TH White's Once and Future King?). I.e. their future\nwas Severian's past. Now as I recall the explanation for the\nheirogrammates' interest in humanity it goes something like this: humanity\ncreated and/or evolved into the heirogrammates. The heirogrammates in turn,\nso as to ensure their own future existence, wish to evolve/create humanity\nso that humanity is in a position to return the favor again. As usual the\ntenses and time directions are all messed up. Wolfe does not, that I\npicked up anyway, develop the backwards-in-time notion very well. One\npossible vision is of a univerese shared by humanity evolving in one\ntime/direction towards the heirogrammates; with the heirogrammates working\nbackwards through the same events to the the beginnings of humanity.\n\n Anyone want to take a stab at explaining this better?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "19. Was the jungle area in the Garden with the three people, one woman, a\n man, and a naked man, in the hut an instance of time-travel? I\n remember reading that Severian noticed that those people seemed to be\n ignoring or at least trying not to notice himself and Agia." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I could never tie up the loose threads in this one. I half suspect that\nWolfe was originally heading in another direction in his conception of the\npanoramas, but changed his mind. For what it's worth I think that the\nreason that the inhabitants were semi-oblivious to Severian and company was\nthat (1) each panorama sort of exuded a proper mind-set for its setting (2)\nsusceptible passers-by were taken up by this and became effectively part of\nthe stage set. I.e. I don't think the people were true originals seen via\ntime travel, I think they were contemporaries of Severian who had gotten\ncaught up in an Ernest Hemmingway look-alike contest imposed by the stage\nset.\n\n Here's a question in return: At least one of the stories which Severian\nrelates from his little brown book is recognizable - that of Theseus\nreturning without changing his sails. Can the other stories be matched up\nwith tales we already know?\n\nEthan A Merritt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "sometimes a Wombat", "address": "lnh at soliton.physics.arizona.edu" }, "date": "1992-10-03T06:12:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jonathan A. Kung writes:\n\nThose questions I CAN answer have been. Except this one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "19. Was the jungle area in the Garden with the three people, one woman,\n a man, and a naked man, in the hut an instance of time-travel? I\n remember reading that Severian noticed that those people seemed to\n be ignoring or at least trying not to notice himself and Agia." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, it was, time travel back to roughly our day Brazil. Or probably\nBrazil. Iffy, just where in South America the City is.\n\nLarry Hammer" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "P W Stephenson", "address": "pws at castle.ed.ac.uk" }, "date": "1992-10-03T16:35:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "merritt at milton.u.washington.edu (Ethan Merritt) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's a question in return: at least one of the stories which Severian\nrelates from his little brown book is recognizable - that of Theseus\nreturning without changing his sails. Can the other stories be matched up\nwith tales we already know?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My head is seriously overloaded after reading this thread and I think I\nneed a lie down with a good book (it seems I'm going to have to dig out my\nFifth Head of Cerberus again), but I remember various of the stories rang\nbells at the time. In particular, the one about anthropomorphic wolves\nstruck me as a mixture of the Romulus and Remus legend and the Jungle Book.\nI can't remember why I recognised the latter.\n\nAlso, in a posting the last time this subject cropped up, I pointed out a\nquotation (the only direct one I know about) from Marlowe's Faustus which I\nbelieve he sees in the brown book: ``Hell hath no limits nor is\ncircumscribed...'' (I think it's that one, at least it's something\nsimilar).\n\nAlso, I have a recollection of some story about a man sitting under a tree\nwhich sounded extremely Buddhist.\n\nIn fact I think most of the stories carry a good helping of myths we know\nabout. The story of the Armiger's daughter (I know it wasn't from the\nbrown book) certainly struck me as a classic piece of folklore, and I\nshould be glad to know if anyone recognised it. That doesn't mean I can't\nbelieve Wolfe invented it.\n\nOf course, a lot of Severian's own experiences have mythological\ncounterparts: as in the second (chronologically, first for Severian)\nmeeting with Typhon where, like Christ, he is tempted by being shown all\nthe countries in the world (ish); as in the Tower of Master Ash which is\nsome counterpart of the tree Yggdrasil of the Norse myths. It's almost as\nif all the myths and actualities of the old Urth have mixed together and\nproduced the one-step-removed-from-reality feel of the novel sequence, just\nas the surface of the planet is littered with the detritus of former\ncivilisations, and just as the very vocabulary is littered with resurrected\nwords... the way the themes all tie together never ceases to astound me.\nNo other writer I know has ever achieved the same effect.\n\n``Almost nothing remains to be told...'' (Citadel, final chapter) - Pah!\n\nPeter Stephenson \nDept. of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics\nUniversity of liverpool, U.K.\n+44 51 794 3784\npws at s-a.amtp.liv.ac.uk\nPWS at UKACRL.BITNET" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan Rabin", "address": "rabin at cs.yale.edu" }, "date": "1992-10-03T16:38:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1. Who Severian's mother is. I have a hunch that's she's Dorcas,\n tortured by the Guild for some reason, so they took Severian in." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that Dorcas was Severian's GRANDMOTHER, and Ouen (the servant at\nthe inn) his father. Certainly Ouen's recognition of Dorcas as his `mother\ncome again' establishes him as her son. At the end of _The Citadel of the\nAutarch_, Severian asks Ouen if he was ever in trouble with the law. Ouen\nadmits that he was involved with a woman who ran away from `some order of\nmonials', and that she was taken by the torturers and bore a child. At the\nbeginning of _The Shadow of the Torturer_ we learn that torturers are taken\nexclusively from children born to their `clients'. Furthermore, Severian\nis young at the time of his exile, and he portrays Ouen as at least\nmiddle-aged, too big an age spread for them both to be children of the same\nmother. The old man at the lake is Dorcas's husband, Severian's\ngrandfather; presumably this is the man she is mourning at the end." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. Who that servant that ran away after passing the warning note\n in the inn by the Sanguinary Fields is. Is he the one that\n married Dorcas at the end?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See above for part of the answer. He doesn't marry her at the end: he is\ncommanded by Severian (whom he knows to be Autarch, but does not know to be\nhis own son) to guard Dorcas, whose mourning leaves her in danger in the\nabandoned parts of town." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "10. What happened during the time between Shadow, I think, and the\n next part, at the Wall, that separated Severian and Jonas from\n the rest?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A group of uhlans (mounted troops, apparently) start attacking travelers\noutside the gate in order to keep them from continuing on the road, where\ntravel is prohibited in order to hobble rebellions. In the melee, Severian\nbecomes separated from all his companions except Jonas.\n\nSomeone following up on this thread asks whether the green man ever returns\nSeverian's favor. He does, when Severian is a captive of the Ascians in\n_The Citadel of the Autarch_, and he says so explicitly.\n\nOne has to reread these books to get any idea of what's happening. This is\nhighly characteristic of Gene Wolfe's writing, especially in some of his\nshort stories. The story ends, you scratch your head, re-examine a few key\nparagraphs, and so on. Sometimes there are multiple contrasting\ninterpretations, all supported by the text. Reading Wolfe can be very much\nlike playing chess.\n\nDan Rabin" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gavin Steyn", "address": "steyn at cs.rochester.edu" }, "date": "1992-10-03T20:22:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's a question in return: at least one of the stories which Severian\nrelates from his little brown book is recognizable - that of Theseus\nreturning without changing his sails. Can the other stories be matched up\nwith tales we already know?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except that the sources are more complicated than that...\n\n I don't remember that much of that sequence, but one thing I do remember\n(partly because Wolfe confirmed it when I talked to him) was that the\nbattle between the giant and the scholar is not straight out of the\nmionotaur legend - it also comes from the battle of the Monitor and the\nMerrimack. There are other sources in there too, but that's the main one I\nrecall.\n\n One of the stories comes from Kipling, I think, (_The Jungle Book_), but\nI don't remember where it is.\n\n Someone should annotate these books one of these days...\n\nGavin Steyn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Bowman", "address": "mbowman at andromeda.rutgers.edu" }, "date": "1992-10-04T23:39:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Regarding Dorcas and the waiter:\n\nJohn Clute (in _Strokes_, a collection of reviews and essays) contends that\nDorcas is Severian's GRANDmother, not his mother. He thinks that the\nwaiter is her son (and hence Severian's father) and that the old man is her\nhusband (and Severian's grandfather). His question was: who is Severian's\nmother? His answer is that it was the Autarch.\n\nMichael Bowman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Donald Lindsay", "address": "lindsay+ at cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "1992-10-05T00:56:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "rabin-dan at cs.yale.edu writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "woman who ran away from `some order of monials', and that she was taken by\nthe torturers and bore a child. At the beginning of _The Shadow of the\nTorturer_ we learn that torturers are taken exclusively from children born\nto their `clients'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We also learn that sometimes, the Seekers For Truth and Penitence are\ninstructed to rape a client. Wasn't this a clue that Severian's father is\nthe torturer who told him this?\n\nDon C. Lindsay\nCarnegie Mellon Computer Science" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dani Zweig", "address": "dani at netcom.com" }, "date": "1992-10-05T05:41:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mbowman at andromeda.rutgers.edu (Michael Bowman):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...Dorcas is Severian's GRANDmother, not his mother. He thinks that the\nwaiter is her son (and hence Severian's father) and that the old man is\nher husband (and Severian's grandfather). His question was: who is\nSeverian's mother? His answer is that it was the Autarch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nothing reading the book wouldn't cure. Dorcas is Severian's grandmother.\nShe died about forty years earlier, giving birth to Ouen, the waiter. Ouen\nnever married, but did have several lovers. One of those, Catherine, who\nwas given to the torturers, was Severian's mother. The Autarch was a\neunuch. Most of the details are brought out near the end of \"Citadel of\nthe Autarch\".\n\nDani Zweig" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Duffey", "address": "duffey at uxh.cso.uiuc.edu" }, "date": "1992-10-05T16:06:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...Dorcas is Severian's GRANDmother, not his mother. He thinks that the\nwaiter is her son (and hence Severian's father) and that the old man is\nher husband (and Severian's grandfather). His question was: who is\nSeverian's mother? His answer is that it was the Autarch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nothing reading the book wouldn't cure. Dorcas is Severian's grandmother.\nShe died about forty years earlier, giving birth to Ouen, the waiter.\nOuen never married, but did have several lovers. One of those, Catherine,\nwho was given to the torturers, was Severian's mother. The Autarch was a\neunuch. Most of the details are brought out near the end of \"Citadel of\nthe Autarch\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But this still leaves the question; where is Severian's mother in the\nBotNS? Almost certainly she appears somewhere. I wonder if she might not\nhave been the woman who played Holy Katharine in the torturers' initiation\nrite. Perhaps she was spared death in exchange for playing this role?\n\n On another note, in Sword of the Lictor, it's implied that Severian may\nwell have a sister (in the section where he meets the pioneering family).\nDoes SHE appear in the book anywhere? Likely candidates, I'd say, are\nMerryn the Cumaean's apprentice, the apprentice witch Severian met on a\nchildhood errand to the witches' tower, and possibly the Pelerine postulant\n(Ava?) he converses with at the lazaret.\n\nTom Duffey\nmebsunll.me.uiuc.edu" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Duffey", "address": "duffey at uxh.cso.uiuc.edu" }, "date": "1992-10-05T16:20:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "steyn at cs.rochester.edu (Gavin Steyn) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Here's a question in return: at least one of the stories which Severian\nrelates from his little brown book is recognizable - that of Theseus\nreturning without changing his sails. Can the other stories be matched\nup with tales we already know?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Except that the sources are more complicated than that...\n\n I don't remember that much of that sequence, but one thing I do remember\n(partly because Wolfe confirmed it when I talked to him) was that the\nbattle between the giant and the scholar is not straight out of the\nmionotaur legend - it also comes from the battle of the Monitor and the\nMerrimack. There are other sources in there too, but that's the main one\nI recall." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Another part of this tale is taken from the idea of doing an academic\nthesis (apparently \"thesis\" and \"Theseus\" got mixed together): the part\nabout the students in the city having to create a son magically in order to\nearn a tasseled hood. I suppose the Minotaur and Monitor represents\nanother such mixture of stories due to similar sounding names.\n\n Also, the idea of magically fleshing out a human appears in a Borges\nshort story, though I don't remember the title. Borges is a strong\ninfluence on Wolfe's writing, and I'd be willing to bet that the blind\nmaster librarian of the Citadel (Ullan?)is a tribute by Wolfe to Borges." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " One of the stories comes from Kipling, I think, (_The Jungle Book_), but\nI don't remember where it is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " This is the story that Severian (the torturer) reads to the orphaned boy\nSeverian while they are together. It is a mix of the Jungle Book, the\nRomulus and Remus story, and a bit of the Plymouth colony founding (I\nsuppose here, the two types of \"Indians\" led to the confusion).\n\nTom Duffey\nmebsunll.me.uiuc.edu" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Elizabeth Willey", "address": "eliz at ai.mit.edu" }, "date": "1992-10-06T14:40:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Greg Feeley published a dense, multipart article on just these isses in\n_The New York Review of Science Fiction_ last year." } ] } ] }