{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/sflovers/121", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "sflovers", "thread": { "id": 121, "subject": "Gene Wolfe: Another New Sun question", "messages": 7, "voices": 7, "first": "1994-06-23T20:58:45+00:00", "last": "1994-06-27T15:27:27+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Curt Wiederhoeft", "address": "curtw at euler.jsc.nasa.gov" }, "date": "1994-06-23T20:58:45+00:00", "subject": "Gene Wolfe: Another New Sun question", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK. Here goes. After volunteering to help Mark Andersen with his planned\n_Book of the New Sun_ FAQ, I thought the least I could do is re-read the\nseries and make sure that I haven't missed any of the mysteries mentioned\non the net in the last few years.\n\nSPOILERS HO!\n\nI think I've now got a pretty thorough understanding of the tetrology, but\nbefore going back to _Urth_ again, I have one nagging question concerning\nthe characters of Jonas and \"Miles.\" To refresh your memory, Jonas is (at\nthe time Severian meets him) a cyborg, trying to become \"whole\" again. It\nis implied that Jonas' organic parts are foreign (although Severian doesn't\nmanage to catch on to this at all.) Eventually, he leaves Urth through\nFather Inire's mirrors.\n\nIn the opening of _Citadel_, Severian revives a dead soldier who retains no\nmemories. Severian names him \"Miles,\" but later makes the following\nstatements:\n\n I *don't* know who you are-but in another sense I\n think I may. I think you're two people, and that\n I know one of them.\n ...\n He told me he would come back. He said, 'I will\n come back for her when I have been repaired, when I\n am sane and whole.' I didn't know quite what to\n think when he said that, but now I believe he has\n come.\n\nNow my question: Is Severian's interpretation correct? It seems to me just\nas likely that with all of the time travel going on in the series, it might\njust be the case that a dead Miles provided the raw materials for Jonas'\n\"patch job,\" and that Severian has it completely backwards.\n\nAny enlightened folk out there? I'm going to be starting up on _Urth of\nthe New Sun_ tomorrow, and I don't recall this sub-plot coming up the first\ntime I read it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.\n\nCurt\ncurtw at euler.jsc.nasa.gov" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Andersen", "address": "manderse at nmsu.edu" }, "date": "1994-06-23T22:23:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe: Another New Sun question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "curtw at euler.jsc.nasa.gov (Curt Wiederhoeft) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "SPOILERS HO!\n\nNow my question: Is Severian's interpretation correct? It seems to me\njust as likely that with all of the time travel going on in the series, it\nmight just be the case that a dead Miles provided the raw materials for\nJonas' \"patch job,\" and that Severian has it completely backwards." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you're closer to being right than Severian is.\n\nIn fact, this whole topic of time-travel effects in the _New Sun_ is\nsomething I've been thinking about a lot lately. At first, I thought that\nsome of the time-travel effects were \"closed loops\" and some were \"open\",\nbut now I'm beginning to think they're all \"open\". (I'm putting \"open\" and\n\"closed\" in quotes here because I don't want people to get the mistaken\nimpression that I'm thinking of these things as equivalent to the \"closed\ntime-like loops\" of wormhole theory. I'm also still trying to figure out\nwhy people abbreviate \"closed time-like loops\" as CTTL instead of CTLL;\nmaybe I've just been seeing traditional propagation of a typo, I don't\nknow.)\n\nOther examples: Ossipago, et al.; Gunnie and Burgundofara; The Claw of the\nConciliator; Abaia's \"girlfriend\". All these characters (and artifact) are\ninvolved in timelines that move backward. I had another example in mind\nlast night, but I was in the car and didn't write it down, so now,\npredictably, I've forgotten it. Maybe I should start carrying around a\nminiature tape recorder.\n\nSlightly off the main subject, but still relevant to discussions of Gene\nWolfe: Has anybody out there read enough Proust to feel qualified to\ncomment on Proust's influences on Wolfe's work? Want to contribute to the\nplanned _New Sun_ FAQ? I can handle the Borges influences myself; and\ntracking down the Lewis influence will finally give me an excuse to read\nthe _Perelandra_ trilogy (a.k.a _Space Trilogy_), but Proust has just never\nbeen within my literary mean free path. Comments and contributions _re_\nother influences, particularly Nabokov, Faulkner, and Chesterton, are also\nwelcome.\n\nMark Andersen\nDepartment of Fishery and Wildlife Sciences\nNew Mexico State University" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "1994-06-24T06:08:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe: Another New Sun question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In _Urth_ Severian is told that the events he thinks are results of the\npower of the Claw are in fact his own work - especially raising of the\ndead. That being the case, his misperception may have become truth the\nlonger he knew Miles, something that Miles found more and more distressing.\n\nDavid Duffy\nQld Inst Med Research\nQueensland, Australia" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Greg Slade", "address": "gslade at yvr.cyberstore.ca" }, "date": "1994-06-24T08:21:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe: Another New Sun question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "SPOILERS HO!\n\nNow my question: Is Severian's interpretation correct? It seems to me\njust as likely that with all of the time travel going on in the series,\nit might just be the case that a dead Miles provided the raw materials\nfor Jonas' \"patch job,\" and that Severian has it completely backwards." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Egad. After all my bad-mouthing of Wolfe, a twist that never even occurred\nto me: not a RE-incarnation, but a PRE-incarnation, if you will. I had\nwondered if Severian had Jonas in mind, but that thread never seemed to go\nanywhere, so I didn't pursue it. But turning it on its head does make a\nfiendish kind of sense, if you write off Jonas' [INSERT AUSTRIAN ACCENT\nHERE] \"I'll be back\" as a red herring.\n\nDarn, darn, darn. Now I'm going to have to read the whole five books much\nmore seriously, just like everybody told me.\n\nBut I *still* think that \"Go read some Star Trek novels\" crack was a low\nblow..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pekka P. Pirinen", "address": "ppp at pirinen.demon.co.uk" }, "date": "1994-06-26T00:26:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe: Another New Sun question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "curtw at euler.jsc.nasa.gov \"Curt Wiederhoeft\" writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "SPOILERS HO!\n\nNow my question: Is Severian's interpretation correct? It seems to me\njust as likely that with all of the time travel going on in the series,\nit might just be the case that a dead Miles provided the raw materials\nfor Jonas' \"patch job,\" and that Severian has it completely backwards." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. Remember that later on, Ava says \"There was another\npatient here like you, and they told me he came with you.\", apparently\nreferring to having two minds in the same body. Also, Severian seems to be\nbasing his deduction on Miles' style of speech rather than physical\nresemblance, and his remark about \"I lost it somewhere along the way.\nThat's what the jaguar said, who had promised to guide the goat.\" makes it\nclear he thought Jonas had taken over Miles' body. Finally, Miles'\ndescription of his earliest memories fits the conditions of Jonas'\ndeparture from the House Absolute. \n\nPekka P. Pirinen" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chun-Wai Chan", "address": "chan at alfrothul.uchicago.edu" }, "date": "1994-06-27T15:22:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe: Another New Sun question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mark Andersen wrote:\nSlightly off the main subject, but still relevant to discussions of Gene\nWolfe: Has anybody out there read enough Proust to feel qualified to\ncomment on Proust's influences on Wolfe's work? Want to contribute to the\nplanned _New Sun_ FAQ? I can handle the Borges influences myself; and\ntracking down the Lewis influence will finally give me an excuse to read\nthe _Perelandra_ trilogy (a.k.a _Space Trilogy_), but Proust has just\nnever been within my literary mean free path. Comments and contributions\n_re_ other influences, particularly Nabokov, Faulkner, and Chesterton, are\nalso welcome." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the most obvious parallel between Wolfe and Proust is that most of\ntheir female characters are courtesans of one sort or another. ;-)\n\nMy opinion is that Wolfe and Proust may share a concern with memory and\ndetailed recollection, but it is a commonality of device rather than\ncontent. Proust's recollections are concerned with social minutiae,\ndetailed observations of human beings and their struggle to both conform\nand to free themselves from society. Wolfe's concerns are more\nmetaphysical; I think Ursula LeGuin's comment that \"Wolfe is our Melville\"\nis on the mark.\n\nC. Chan\nLaboratory of Astrophysics and Space Research\nEnrico Fermi Institute \nThe University of Chicago" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Stephenson", "address": "pws at s-a.amtp.liv.ac.uk" }, "date": "1994-06-27T15:27:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe: Another New Sun question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "manderse at nmsu.edu (Mark Andersen) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Slightly off the main subject, but still relevant to discussions of Gene\nWolfe: Has anybody out there read enough Proust to feel qualified to\ncomment on Proust's influences on Wolfe's work? Want to contribute to the\nplanned _New Sun_ FAQ? I can handle the Borges influences myself; and\ntracking down the Lewis influence will finally give me an excuse to read\nthe _Perelandra_ trilogy (a.k.a _Space Trilogy_), but Proust has just\nnever been within my literary mean free path. Comments and contributions\n_re_ other influences, particularly Nabokov, Faulkner, and Chesterton,\nare also welcome." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've thought about this over the last few years, but I've never come to any\ndefinitive conclusions.\n\nMy impression, having read both a lot of Wolfe and Remembrance of Things\nPast (which is a lot of book) is that mostly the influence is rather\nindirect; probably Proust influenced his style more than anything else.\nThe only explicit reference I know (apart from actually mentioning Proust\nin Peace, which doesn't really count) is in the Fifth Head of Cerberus: the\nopening sentence deliberately echoes Proust's. In Peace, too, Proustian\nmemory seems to relate quite well to Weer's descriptions. At odd moments -\nSeverian staring up at the sky after leaving Thrax springs to mind -\nWolfe's descriptions recall Proust, but mostly the narrative is rather\ndifferent, although the use of prose is similar in that both have an\northodox style which nonetheless manages some extremely deep resonances (I\nhaven't read Proust in French more than a paragraph or two).\n\nTime is certainly a major theme in both works, but Wolfe's dealings with\ntime are much more general than Proust's, who is mainly interested in its\ndirect effects on human beings, and who deals with it by and large by\ninference: how characters have changed, how his narrator's memories have\naltered. Proust's Marcel's memories are much less explicit than\nSeverian's: the whole import of the famous Petit Madeleine episode is that\nhe has lost some experience from his memory, then recaptured it (I'm\ngrossly oversimplifying, of course), something not really possible for\nSeverian. The incredible synthesis of all the different sub-themes of time\nwhich takes place towards the end of Citadel of the Autarch is way beyond\nanything similar Proust attempted, but in its different way it is certainly\nabout `Time Regained' - the title of the last volume of Proust's book.\n\nOther possible ideas which may be nonsense:\n\n- - the party in Thrax might have hints of one of Proust's long descriptions\nof social events; Severian describes himself as sort of Lorentz invariant\n(he's the only person there in his own clothes) while Proust writes about\nthe period when relativity was discovered (tenuous, but in Wolfe's case\nit's hard to be over-detailed). However, I think this episode centres on\nthe `paradox' theme which doesn't really relate well to Proust.\n\n- - Proust's last sentence, which I can't remember well, is to the effect\nthat he'd like to write about people who have a wider experience of time.\nPerhaps Wolfe's work is in this sense a sort of sequel to Proust's?\n\nAnyone else got any views? I'd like to hear them: Proust and Wolfe are\nprobably my two favourite prose writers of the century.\n\nOne comment in re Faulkner: the social milieu of the places Severian passes\nthrough on leaving Nessus does recall Faulkner's Yoknapatawpha, but perhaps\nthat's inevitable.\n\nPeter Stephenson\nDepartment of Physics\nUniversity of Wales at Swansea\nSingleton Park, Swansea, SA2 8PP, U.K.\nP.Stephenson at swan.ac.uk" } ] } ] }