{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/sflovers/130", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "sflovers", "thread": { "id": 130, "subject": "Wolfe's \"New Sun\": Severian Unmasked!", "messages": 13, "voices": 8, "first": "1995-09-20T02:02:42+00:00", "last": "1995-09-30T19:15:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Dye", "address": "raster at terra.com" }, "date": "1995-09-20T02:02:42+00:00", "subject": "Wolfe's \"New Sun\": Severian Unmasked!", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "SEVERIAN UNMASKED:\n\nGene Wolfe's \"The Book of the New Sun\" epic is one of the most complex,\nambitious masterworks in the field of science fiction. Wolfe draws upon\ndozens of literary sources to enrich his world; I will cover a few here.\nMy intentions in posting this explication are twofold: first, to enrich the\nSeverian experience for those who have missed some of Wolfe's references;\nsecond, I'd like to hear from others who have insights I don't.\n\nI, SEVERIAN:\n\nThe work most frequently referenced in \"The Book of the New Sun\" is Robert\nGraves's \"Claudius\" cycle. I have a horrible suspicion that the grave\nrobbers in Chapter I of \"Shadow\" are there partly as a punning homage to\nGraves. Certainly there are too many similarities between the two works to\nbe explained by coincidence.\n\n\"I, Claudius\" is the autobiography of the Roman Emperor, Claudius,\n\"translated\" by Robert Graves. Claudius stresses the point that he is\nwriting the story himself: \"I am my own mere secretary....\" He intends his\nmanuscript for an audience in the distant future, and at one point\nconsiders the idea of sealing it in a lead casket for safekeeping.\n\n\"The Book of the New Sun\" is the autobiography of the Autarch Severian,\n\"translated\" by Gene Wolfe. Severian also does his own writing,\n\"... sitting up writing all night here in the clerestory.\" He decides to\nsend his story to a distant time, possibly even a different universe, by\nsealing it \"in a coffer of lead\" and launching it from Tzadkiel's starship.\n\nBoth Claudius and Severian have a tendency to write long, complicated\nsentences. Claudius's writing style mimics his stumbling tongue, too slow\nto keep up with his darting thoughts; Severian's perfect memory allows him\nto match subject to verb despite any numbers of intervening clauses.\n\nClaudius and Severian are both lame (Claudius has a withered leg, Severian\na battle wound.) Both become Emperor through unlikely twists of Fate.\nBoth lead armies into battle, and successfully prosecute a war. Both are\ndeified after their deaths. Severian's gentle brutality reflects\nClaudius's patrician tyranny.\n\nClaudius' wife, during the early part of his reign, is the lady Valeria\nMessalina. Severian, shortly after assuming the throne, marries a lady\nnamed Valeria. Since Valeria is a heliotropic (sun-seeking) plant, this is\na case of Wolfe bettering Graves!\n\n\"The Book of the New Sun\" is littered with dozens, if not hundreds, of\nsimilar references. If you have not read \"I, Claudius\" and \"Claudius the\nGod\", you are missing much of \"The Book of the New Sun\", as well as a work\nof literature which is great in its own right.\n\nSEVERIAN AS CHRIST:\n\nMost of the references to Jesus Christ in the \"Book of the New Sun\" are too\nobvious to give special mention to: Severian heals the sick, brings the\ndead to life (and vice versa, of course), changes water into wine, et\ncetera. More subtle, I think, is Severian's encounter with Typhon in\nChapter XXVI of \"The Sword of the Lictor\". Typhon's offers correspond\nexactly with Satan's temptations of Christ in Matthew, chapter 4: bread\nfrom stones, flight, power over the world. This chapter (in \"Sword\") also\nhints darkly at \"The Inferno\". Severian's confusion at \"descending\" from\nthe mountain's lap to its summit recalls Dante's puzzlement at Virgil's\ndescent/ascent from Hell. Oddly enough, Typhon only gets two heads and one\nsinner to chew on.\n\nSEVERIAN, THE MEMORIOUS:\n\nThe character of Severian benefits somewhat from \"Funes, the Memorious\" in\nthe short story of the same name by Jorge Luis Borges (about whom more\nlater). Funes has a mind crippled by a perfect memory. He is incapable of\nany level of abstraction; since dog-1 (asleep, at 10:20 am) is so obviously\ndifferent from dog-2 (playing outdoors at 10:25), Funes is unable to\nconsider them aspects of the same dog, or even to put the same name to\nthem.\n\nSeverian, on the other hand, seems an absolute philosopher of abstraction.\nHowever, he does hint that his gift may be linked to \"poor judgement\" and\nat one point even states baldly that he is insane. Certainly he does\ndisplay a certain messianic madness at times.\n\nTERMINUS EST:\n\nA \"terminus\" is the end of the line, of course. Severian does not know,\nbut Wolfe certainly does, that the \"terminator\" is the division between\nnight and day on a planet's surface. The sword's name could be translated\n\"Edge of Day\".\n\nMASTER ULTAN:\n\nHis character is drawn partly from Claudius' history tutors, Athenodorus\nand Sulpicius. (Ultan at one point mentions a reading room reserved for\nthe use of \"the Autarch Sulpicius\".) Athenodorus is described as\npossessing a large, perfectly white beard stretching to his waist, and a\ngentle wisdom. Sulpicius is the human Dewey-decimal catalog, who will\nalways \"know what authority had treated of these points, in which book, and\nfrom which shelf of which case in which room of which library they were to\nbe obtained.\"\n\nHowever, the character of Master Ultan derives mostly from a real man,\nJorge Luis Borges. Borges is considered the greatest Argentine writer.\nWhen he realized that his vision was failing, Borges set to work memorizing\ngreat quantities of literature. After becoming completely blind, Borges\nwas named director of the Argentine National Library in Buenos Aries.\n\nBorges's \"Fictions\" deliberately muddy the distinction between truth and\nfiction, giving them a slippery, eerily vague air. Borges himself would be\ndelighted to know that he has taken on new life as a fictional character.\n\n(And how would Gene Wolfe feel about similar treatment? Little Severian,\ndemanding a bedtime story, states: \"It should have wolfs in it.\")\n\nONWARD, UPWARD\n\nSeverianology is a new science. When, one fine day, the critical world\noutside of \"science fiction\" discovers \"New Sun\", we can expect to see many\nscholarly dissections and annotations of Wolfe's work. Until that day\ndawns, however, information is scarce and hard to come by. If you have\ninsights that you'd like to share, post them here, or email me." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "raibeck", "address": "raibeck at tiac.net" }, "date": "1995-09-20T21:01:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe's \"New Sun\": Severian Unmasked!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unfortunately I can not add anything to your discourse since I have not yet\nread the series. However maybe you (or someone else) can give me some\nadvice.\n\nI have been trying to get started with this series for quite some\ntime. It's supposed to be one of the masterworks of the field. Yet, no\nmatter how hard I've tried, I just can't get past the first 30 pages or so\nof the first volume (The Shadow of the Torturer). Obviously this is not\nlight reading.\n\nI like to think I'm at least half-bright, but this book has me stumped. How\ncan I best approach this series? Is there a particular background I need?\n(Wolfe's extensive vocabulary doesn't make things any easier; even my\nRandom House College Dictionary doesn't have a lot of the words.)\n\nThanks in advance.\n\nAndy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "The Cutest Man on The Net", "address": "eaobrien at ebi.ac.uk" }, "date": "1995-09-21T16:03:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe's \"New Sun\": Severian Unmasked!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "raibeck at tiac.net (Andy Raibeck) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have been trying to get started with this series for quite some\ntime. It's supposed to be one of the masterworks of the field. Yet, no\nmatter how hard I've tried, I just can't get past the first 30 pages or so\nof the first volume (The Shadow of the Torturer). Obviously this is not\nlight reading." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\t\n Very true. One of the things that has cropped up in a couple of email\ndiscussions about this book I've had recently, is that it takes a long time\nfor things to fit together. For example, the scene in the start of _Shadow_\nwhere Severian is saved from drowning isn't really explained until quite\nlate in _The Claw of the Conciliator_, so on the first read through at\nleast, things can seem quite disjoint..\n\n So what I'm saying is 'it reads best when you have already read it'\nwhich isn't much help.. hmm.. it's certainly the only series that makes me\nwant to reread it immediately I finish it every time - six so far." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I like to think I'm at least half-bright, but this book has me\nstumped. How can I best approach this series? Is there a particular\nbackground I need? (Wolfe's extensive vocabulary doesn't make things any\neasier; even my Random House College Dictionary doesn't have a lot of the\nwords.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\t\n The vocabulary is one of the many things I like about the series, in that\nevery obscure word is both real and used appropriately.. some of the beast\nnames are prehistoric species names, for example. There is a piece in\n_Castle of Days_ where Wolfe goes through the obscure vocabulary in\n_Shadow_, I think someone has done a _Lexicon Urthus_ but I'm not sure\nexactly what it entails - and it is rather expensive. I don't think there's\nany specific background you need to appreciate it, but I certainly have\ntaken more out of it as I brought more to it, there are many levels in\nthere.\n\n It's quite a contrast with the Long Sun books, where things seem to\ndevelop in a much more linear fashion.. is that just me, or does anyone\nelse have the same reaction — I think the Long Sun books would certainly be\nmore accessible to a first-time Wolfe reader.\n\nEmmet" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Raibeck", "address": "raibeck at tiac.net" }, "date": "1995-09-22T03:07:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe's \"New Sun\": Severian Unmasked!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "BTW, any opinion on \"The Urth of the New Sun\" and \"The Book of the Long\nSun\"? How do you rank these with \"The Book of the New Sun\"?\n\nThanks again.\n\nAndy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Andersen", "address": "manderse at nmsu.edu" }, "date": "1995-09-22T08:53:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe's \"New Sun\": Severian Unmasked!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who do you believe was Severian's mother? I read a good argument once\n(can't remember where offhand) to the effect that his mother was the\nAutarch. (The Autarch Severian succeeded on the throne is the only Autarch\nmentioned in the story with neither name nor epithet. The Autarch refers to\nSeverian as \"My son\". One could argue that the Autarch androgyny may just\nas well have come about through being deprived of femininity, as through\nbeing deprived of masculinity.)\n\nDr. Mark Andersen\t\t\nDepartment of Fishery and Wildlife Sciences\nNew Mexico State University" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ethan A Merritt", "address": "merritt at u.washington.edu" }, "date": "1995-09-22T16:37:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe's \"New Sun\": Severian Unmasked!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "manderse at nmsu.edu (Mark Andersen) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who do you believe was Severian's mother? I read a good argument once\n(can't remember where offhand) to the effect that his mother was the\nAutarch. (The Autarch Severian succeeded on the throne is the only Autarch\nmentioned in the story with neither name nor epithet. The Autarch refers\nto Severian as \"My son\". One could argue that the Autarch androgyny may\njust as well have come about through being deprived of femininity, as\nthrough being deprived of masculinity.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll keep that in mind next time I read the New Sun and see if I come\nacross any evidence one way or the other. The only thing that comes to\nmind is the resulting irony. Remember that Severian is told in _Urth_ that\nthe reason the autarch's are neutered is to prevent the establishment of a\ndynasty, so if Severian is nevertheless the offspring of the previous\nautarch...\n\nEthan A Merritt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pat McMurray", "address": "pat at cooky.demon.co.uk" }, "date": "1995-09-23T17:55:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe's \"New Sun\": Severian Unmasked!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "manderse at nmsu.edu (Mark Andersen) wrote:\nWho do you believe was Severian's mother? I read a good argument once\n(can't remember where offhand) to the effect that his mother was the\nAutarch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aha! That was John Clute writing in his book \"Strokes\" published by\nSerconia Press in 1988. This is a closely reasoned, very convincing\nargument - however I have heard the theory's been repudiated by Gene Wolfe.\nThis is third hand news at best, from sources I'd believe reliable, so take\nit as you will.\n\nPat" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "The Cutest Man on The Net", "address": "eaobrien at ebi.ac.uk" }, "date": "1995-09-24T15:45:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe's \"New Sun\": Severian Unmasked!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "BTW, any opinion on \"The Urth of the New Sun\" and \"The Book of the Long\nSun\"? How do you rank these with \"The Book of the New Sun\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\t\n _Urth_ I liked, but not as much as the Book.. it comes a long time after\n_Book of the New Sun_, and.. how to put this without spoilers.. made some\nof the ambiguities I really liked about the Book less so.\n\n _Book of the Long Sun_ I am really enjoying, it doesn't seem to have\nquite the depth and number of levels to it that _The Book of the New Sun_\ndid but that's after reading only the first three. It's a great deal more\naccessible, things are much more gradually linear rather than fitting\ntogether suddenly at odd moments.\n\nEmmet" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Dye", "address": "raster at terra.com" }, "date": "1995-09-25T00:35:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe's \"New Sun\": Severian Unmasked!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "raibeck at tiac.net wrote:\nI have been trying to get started with this series for quite some\ntime. It's supposed to be one of the masterworks of the field. Yet, no\nmatter how hard I've tried, I just can't get past the first 30 pages or so\nof the first volume (The Shadow of the Torturer). Obviously this is not\nlight reading." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"New Sun\" is one of those novels that you either love or despise; I guess\nyou've figured out which camp I'm in. And there's no reason to force\nyourself to read something you can't stand. (Unless you're still in school\n...)\n\nWhy do I love this book? First, I'm a logophile. And Gene Wolfe is a\nstark, raving logomaniac. I think it's great trying to figure out where he\ngot all his words. (Latin _fuligo_, \"soot\" -> English _fuliginous_,\n\"sooty, dark\"; if this word were in common use it probably would drop the\nadjectival ending and become _fuligin_.) A \"lictor\" carries a \"fasces\", a\nRoman symbol from which we get \"Fascist\"; Severian is to uphold Abdiesus's\nrather fascist government with punishment and death. If you enjoy these\ngames, then \"New Sun\" is Disneyworld. If not, well, no shame to you\nbut, Wolfe is going to be a long haul.\n\nSecond, the sheer enormous SCOPE of the thing. Wolfe has a genius for\nhugeness. Did you get a kick out of the sense of Deep Time in, say, \"The\nCity and the Stars?\" Wolfe can convey that ancientness a lot better than\nClarke ever could. For instance, there's a scene in \"Sword\" in which\nSeverian descends a sheer cliff more than a mile high. As he climbs, he\nstudies the fossils embedded in the rock. The fossils at the top are from\nfar in our future. And so are the fossils at the bottom. Likewise,\nSeverian's \"Commonwealth\" better illustrates a large, varied culture than,\nsay, Asimov's \"Galactic Empire.\" Wolfe's partial continent is bigger than\nAsimov's galaxy.\n\nThird, it's great fun picking out Wolfe's literary allusions. I said that\nGraves's \"I, Claudius\" cycle was the major source. There are dozens, if\nnot hundreds, of others. The bedtime story Severian reads to little\nSeverian is an ingenious blend of \"Romulus and Remus\" and Kipling, among\nothers; Doctor Talos's play borrows from Shakespeare. Mythology is also\nheavily represented; we get myths prehistoric, classical, medieval, and\nmodern, as well as Bible references. Again, the sort of puzzle you either\nenjoy, or not.\n\nFinally, the biggest enigma of all, the character of Severian himself.\nGentle, brutal, chivalrous, murderous. \"I know how to treat an edge, and I\nsharpened it carefully.\" Many of the other characters are also puzzles -\nDorcas, Jolenta, Jonas, Talos and Baldanders but, they serve primarily to\ndistract your attention from the central puzzle to the \"Book.\" Who and\nwhat is Severian?\n\nSomeone gave the advice that \"you have to read it twice\". Absolutely true.\nDespite the apparent symmetries that Wolfe gives the novel, the pivotal\nepisode in Severian's story doesn't come until about 4/5ths of the way\nthrough the fourth volume.\n\nIn my opinion, \"The Book of the New Sun\" is the greatest SF ever written.\nIt has revolutionized the field. (And no other author seems willing to\npick up the gauntlet, with the happy exception of Dan Simmons.) I feel\nlucky to have discovered it. Those awful titles - I would never have\nbought anything titled \"The Shadow of the Torturer\", except that I found\nit, used, for 50 cents.\n\nTastes vary, however, and \"New Sun\" is not everyone's cup of tea. I hope\nyou do continue with it, and find it as rewarding as I have. If not, well,\nthat's okay too." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Dye", "address": "raster at terra.com" }, "date": "1995-09-25T00:43:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe's \"New Sun\": Severian Unmasked!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That \"I, Claudius\" post was no joke. \"Claudius\" and \"New Sun\" are\ncomplementary series that illuminate each other. And if \"I, Claudius\"\nmakes you contemplate suicide, well, you may never enjoy \"New Sun\" either." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Dye", "address": "raster at terra.com" }, "date": "1995-09-26T03:33:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe's \"New Sun\": Severian Unmasked!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "manderse at nmsu.edu (Mark Andersen) wrote:\nWho do you believe was Severian's mother? I read a good argument once\n(can't remember where offhand) to the effect that his mother was the\nAutarch. (The Autarch Severian succeeded on the throne is the only Autarch\nmentioned in the story with neither name nor epithet. The Autarch refers\nto Severian as \"My son\". One could argue that the Autarch androgyny may\njust as well have come about through being deprived of femininity, as\nthrough being deprived of masculinity.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wheeeee...\n\nWe do get a fairly detailed picture of her in \"Citadel.\" Ouen describes a\nwoman who was dark-haired, religious (perhaps a renegade Pelerine,\ntherefore possibly highborn), was captured by the authorities and,\nsuckerpunch, named Catherine. (Only Gene Wolfe can suckerpunch with a\nname!) Since all torturers are born to torturees, Catherine seems to me a\nmuch better bet than the head of state.\n\nAlso, recall that Severian inherits his predecessor's memories ... he\nremembers being \"unmanned\" in Briah, not giving birth to himself.\n\nHow about Severian's sister? Wolfe makes it clear that \"Severian\" is a\ntwin-name. Might \"Severa\" have been given to the witches? And might they\nhave changed her name to, say, \"Merryn?\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "**/**", "address": "oberon at uwyo.edu" }, "date": "1995-09-26T21:09:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe's \"New Sun\": Severian Unmasked!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure, but isn't there a section in the third or fourth book\nrelating a wolf-boy fable clearly drawn from Kiplings' _Jungle Book_? Or\ndid I dream it? Ah, to have the memory of Severian...\n On a side note, I'm currently reading Clive Barkers' Imajica for the\nfirst time (and enjoying it). The Dominions thus far portrayed seem much\nlike Urth, and the Autarchs spoken of in both series share a similar\nmessianic, mystical, distant \"weirdness\" (as you can see I'm having trouble\nnailing down what I mean. Oh well, as Wolfe demonstrates, obscurity can be\ncompelling.) any opinions?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Arthur Morgan", "address": "arthur at elfarran.demon.co.uk" }, "date": "1995-09-30T19:15:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe's \"New Sun\": Severian Unmasked!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "raster at terra.com \"Charles Dye\" writes:\nAbout the identity of Severian's mother" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, recall that Severian inherits his predecessor's memories ... he\nremembers being \"unmanned\" in Briah, not giving birth to himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. There's no reason to link her with the Autarch. Severian's father\nis Ouen, of the Inn of Lost Loves, and his mother was probably high-born\n(which explains his height). Dorcas was his grandmother. Incidentally,\nCatherine comes from a Greek word meaning `pure' in Greek, and seems a\npunning reference to the Virgin birth of another, better-known Conciliator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How about Severian's sister? Wolfe makes it clear that \"Severian\" is a\ntwin-name. Might \"Severa\" have been given to the witches? And might\nthey have changed her name to, say, \"Merryn?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I once wote to Wolfe about Merryn (and some other things), and he said she\nwas probably Severian's sister.\n\nArthur Morgan\narthur at elfarran.demon.co.uk" } ] } ] }