{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/sflovers/141", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "sflovers", "thread": { "id": 141, "subject": "Book of the New Sun-Should I keep going?", "messages": 12, "voices": 11, "first": "1996-12-12T01:50:10+00:00", "last": "1996-12-13T16:42:28+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "(unknown)", "address": "" }, "date": "1996-12-12T01:50:10+00:00", "subject": "Book of the New Sun-Should I keep going?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello everyone. It's good to be back. I have just finished reading _The\nShadow of the Torturer_ and am starting on _The Claw of the Conciliator_.\nI am not so sure that I want to finish the whole series though. From\nreading TSoT I get the impression that this series is Sword and Sorcery,\nalthough some characters do have science facts, and there is some mention\nof interstellar travel and aliens. I think the world Urth is probably some\ncolony world that's lost contact with civilization and had degenerated. Am\nI right?\n\nWhat I would really like to know is why this series is so popular. Does it\nget better in the later books? Is there some great revelation about Urth\nthat is to come? In general, just tell me something good about the book so\nI can decide to finish reading it. Help is appreciated.\n\nMike" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeremy P Lakatos", "address": "afn39111 at afn.org" }, "date": "1996-12-12T04:15:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: Book of the New Sun-Should I keep going?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Wen (mswen at worldnet.att.net@postoffice.worldnet.att.net) wrote:\nreading TSoT I get the impression that this series is Sword and Sorcery, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hardly. Though there are swords, and sorcery, there are no quests to be\nwon, no dragons to battle, no evil overlords to overthrow. It isn't Swords\nand Sorcery, it's fantasy (but then, scifi is fantasy too)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "some colony world that's lost contact with civilization and had\ndegenerated. Am I right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Except that several types of magic work: There's the mysterious\nwitchery of the Claw. There's time travel. There are great solar ships like\nSpace:1889. There are souls, which follow a bizarre and unscientific course\nof action." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What I would really like to know is why this series is so popular. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It simply reeks with mystery. That's what I like. I don't like mysteries,\nbut I like mystery, and the New Sun books have a great sense of something\nwhich is too big to be easily known.\n\nThe characters are realistic and intriguing. They have faults and they act\non them. The story would function quite well as a mainstream story (where\nplot is usually rather formula but the characters are very crafted).\n\nThe story is crafted. It is written deftly and Wolfe achieves the mood he\nsets out to achieve. His narrator is very cultured, with a endearing\nmaudlin touch.\n\nThe series is unabashedly fantasy and exemplifies what fantasy should be.\nOther stories that fit this definition in my mind are Simmons' Hyperion\nbooks, Harlan Ellison's stories, and some of PKD's novels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does it get better in the later books? Is there some great revelation\nabout Urth that is to come?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It gets better, though most of the revelations are about Severian, up until\nthe Urth of the New Sun, where the mysteries are finally revealed. The\nbook, however, is a disappointment after the original series." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Stefan Raets", "address": "sraets at ix.netcom.com" }, "date": "1996-12-12T12:49:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: Book of the New Sun-Should I keep going?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Wen wrote:\nI have just finished reading _The Shadow of the Torturer_ and am starting\non _The Claw of the Conciliator_. I am not so sure that I want to finish\nthe whole series though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I certainly considered it worthwhile, even one of my favorites of all\ntime. The book is beautiful blend of fantasy and science fiction -\nalthough technically it is science fiction.\n More precisely it is far future-science fiction, a small subgenre in SF.\nThe main theme in the subgenre is that it is set incredibly far in the\nfuture of our own Earth. So far that nothing remains of our present\nculture. So far that continents are no longer recognizable and the\nlanguage is radically different. (Another excellent example in this genre:\nThe Dying Earth by Jack Vance).\n Many hints are given throughout the books that there used to be\ntechnology, but that by now most of it is forgotten or derelict. The most\nobvious example is the Citadel where the books start: its towers are\nspaceships. Reread and you'll see the hints.\n Later on in the books there is a short discussion about the name Urth.\nIt is said that long before, when the language of the earth was different,\nUrth meant Earth. Now however it has a different meaning (I am not\nentirely sure but I think it is \"Past\", whereas their present name for Mars\nmeans \"present\".)\n Moreover, there is still technology. You will see that Jonas is a good\nexample of this (don't want to spoil it for you). Also, if you ever try\nbook five (The Urth of the New Sun) you'll see that the sequence was\nfull-blown SF from the beginning. However, book five is definitely below\nstandard in my opinion. The original four books are the best.\n It is easy to mistake this sequence for fantasy though, because Wolfe\nuses so many elements of the Sword and Sorcery tradition. Again, this is\npossible because the civilization of Urth has degenerated to the point\nwhere it is almost medieval. And something else: without being aware of\nall the background literature on Wolfe's work, reading it as a fantasy\nsequence is very enjoyable. Nothing wrong with that.\n A common interpretation of the magic in TBOTNS is that Severian is\nclearly meant to be a messianic figure (saving the earth, healing the sick,\nmoving from outcast to leadership, ...). He has been described as the\nmessiah and Apollo in one figure. The New Sun can be interpreted in\nmultiple ways within this thesis.\n\n Anyway, before I got this deep into the book I enjoyed it a lot as a\ngood fantasy story, a simple plain good read, and again, nothing wrong with\nthat. But if you are willing to dig, you can find a lot of depth in these\nbooks.\n\nStefan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "rrhmah", "address": "rrhmah at aol.com" }, "date": "1996-12-12T13:43:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: Book of the New Sun-Should I keep going?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that _The Book of the New Sun_ is the best science fiction of the\nlast 25 years. And it is, in my opinion, definitely science fiction and not\nfantasy.\n\nThat said, if you didn't like _The Shadow of the Torturer_, you probably\nwon't like the rest of the series any better. All the elements which make\n_The Book of the New Sun_ great are in _The Shadow of the Torturer_: the\nmysteries, the elegant language, Severian and his complex relationship with\nThecla, his job, hints about his future, the (to me, I'm afraid, rather\nobvious, though no less delightful for all that) true nature of Urth. Not\neveryone likes the same stuff, or responds to the same stuff. So maybe\n_The Book of the New Sun_ isn't for you.\n\nRich Horton" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Eddie & Jeannie Grove", "address": "grove at is001.efaxinc.com" }, "date": "1996-12-12T16:54:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: Book of the New Sun-Should I keep going?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you would know by now whether you like it.\n\nWhat it has going for it is incredible writing. I remember giving it to my\nfather, and he got as far as the opening torture scene. He told me the\ndescription was too good, and it left him nauseous. I don't know of any\nother book that stopped him in this way.\n\nThere are plenty of revelations, and lots of mystery. Read a third of the\nway through Claw, and if you don't like it by then, it probably just isn't\nfor you.\n\nEddie Grove" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lawrence Person", "address": "lawrence at bga.com" }, "date": "1996-12-12T18:56:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: Book of the New Sun-Should I keep going?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Wen wrote:\nWhat I would really like to know is why this series is so popular. Does\nit get better in the later books? Is there some great revelation about\nUrth that is to come? In general, just tell me something good about the\nbook so I can decide to finish reading it. Help is appreciated." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's popular because it's vivid, baroque, raises many important moral\nquestions (i.e., Severian's profession), poetic, erudite, and highly\nimaginative (among about a hundred other virtues). As for whether you\nshould keep reading, I would say one of the primary considerations would be\nyour age and how much SF you've read. I read SHADOW at age 16, went \"Whoa,\nthis is really baroque,\" and never sought out the other books. At age 26, I\nread all four books and loved them. But it's definitely not work suitable\nfor beginning readers.\n\nLawrence Person" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Christian Claiborn", "address": "clc at adsmart.net" }, "date": "1996-12-12T19:00:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: Book of the New Sun-Should I keep going?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "afn39111 at afn.org (Jeremy P Lakatos) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hardly. Though there are swords, and sorcery, there are no quests to be\nwon, no dragons to battle, no evil overlords to overthrow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um, maybe the versions that you and I read were different?\n\nOf *course* there's a quest. There are bunches of them. Severian is\nsearching for his identity. He's searching for his and Urth's place in the\nuniverse. There are evil overlords aplenty, as I recall (although I won't\nsay who, because I don't want to insert spoilers).\n\nTBotNS is, in my opinion, the greatest quest novel(s) written in the last\nthirty years." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. Except that several types of magic work: There's the mysterious\nwitchery of the Claw. There's time travel. There are great solar ships\nlike Space:1889. There are souls, which follow a bizarre and unscientific\ncourse of action." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "** SPOILERS ** \n\nUrth is not a colony world, it's Earth. I've always figured the Gyoll to\nbe the Amazon river, but I can't quite remember why now. There's been an\nice age or twelve since our time, and the sun's gone cold." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It gets better, though most of the revelations are about Severian, up\nuntil the Urth of the New Sun, where the mysteries are finally revealed.\nThe book, however, is a disappointment after the original series." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd argue that the revelations about Urth fly fast and furious throughout\nthe series itself. You learn about the witches, about the extrasolar fauna\nthat Urth has imported, about the future of the planet (the Green Men),\nabout the political system, about everything.\n\nWhat I love about these books is that there's so much to discover, and\nWolfe has written the prose so carefully that there is always another fact,\nor relationship, or understanding of the culture to discover. You can look\nup every term in mythology references and try to trace the bizarre images\nto their source, or you can simply let it sink in and allow the epiphanies\nto come naturally.\n\nI'll stop ranting now.\n\nChristian Longshore Claiborn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at crossover.com" }, "date": "1996-12-13T00:19:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: Book of the New Sun-Should I keep going?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Wen wrote:\nWhat I would really like to know is why this series is so popular. Does\nit get better in the later books?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are maybe a hundred people in the world who respect Wolfe more than I\ndo; I certainly think he's the greatest living writer of f & sf, and one of\nthe greatest living writers period.\n\nWith that as a preamble, I would say, if you didn't enjoy _Shadow of the\nTorturer_, odds are you won't enjoy the later volumes. It is possible that\nWolfe is not to your taste, or that this specific Wolfe is not to your\ntaste, or that the Wolfe is not to your taste right now.\n\nMy favorite bits are indeed in the later volumes: the meeting with Typhon\nin _Sword_, the stories in _Claw_, _Sword_, and (especially) the story\ncontest in _Citadel_, and the encounter with Master Ash in the Last House\nin _Citadel_, but if you find yourself wondering \"why am I reading this\",\nit probably isn't the right book for you right now.\n\nWolfe demands a great deal of attention from his readers. Most writers\ndon't, and not paying close attention is a hard habit to break. I know that\nI miss a great deal in Wolfe's work, especially on first reading.\n\nKevin Maroney" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "SCN User", "address": "bb094 at scn.org" }, "date": "1996-12-13T07:43:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: Book of the New Sun-Should I keep going?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The four books are really one novel chopped into 4 parts. You cannot really\nread them independently for full comprehension. They should be read in\norder.\n\nI would also strongly recommend reading the sequel to the 4 volumes of the\nBook of the New Sun. It is The Urth of the New Sun: Severian leaves the\nUrth on an amazing journey that reveals even more about the Urth universe\nand Severian's place in it. I thought Urth of the New Sun provides a more\nsatisfactory conclusion, that wraps up many questions left up in the air at\nthe end of Book of the New Sun.\n\nI consider this series one of the greatest works of SF. It helps if you\nenjoy language for it's own sake. Wolfe is one of the most powerful writers\nthis century. His control of language is astounding.\n\nAnd now the Long Sun series is finished. Oh joy!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael R Weholt", "address": "awnbreel at panix.com" }, "date": "1996-12-13T12:23:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: Book of the New Sun-Should I keep going?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "kmaroney at crossover.com wrote:\nWith that as a preamble, I would say, if you didn't enjoy _Shadow of the\nTorturer_, odds are you won't enjoy the later volumes. It is possible that\nWolfe is not to your taste, or that this specific Wolfe is not to your\ntaste, or that the Wolfe is not to your taste right now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " This is the one truly pertinent piece of advice. The story pretty much\ncontinues in the same vein so if you had trouble with the first book, you\nwill have the same trouble further on. If you bail out now, I do hope you\nreturn to it someday. It really is wonderful.\n\n Regarding Jo's point about the Gyoll being the Amazon. I thought as\nmuch myself, but then started thinking that we can't really say in that the\nstory must take place millions of years in the future (else the sun\nwouldn't be in such bad shape, no?) The continents would have moved around\na bit, no? The \"true identity\" of the Ascians is fairly obvious and I\nbelieve there is some mention that they are from the \"continent to the\nnorth\". South America being at some remove from \"Ascia\" it seems possible\nthat the Gyoll is not the Amazon. Also, I believe there is some mention of\nthe fact that part of the Commonwealth consists of a \"string of islands\"\nwhich made me think the continent may be Australia with the Indonesian\narchipelagos being those islands. But, as I say, all this must be millions\nof years in the future, so who the hell knows. Or, is there some other\nsource somewhere that makes all of this clear? I'm literally just pages\nfrom the end (after reading it for the first time) so I admit I know little\nabout what info might exist \"outside\" the book itself.\n\nMichael R Weholt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at crossover.com" }, "date": "1996-12-13T16:32:01+00:00", "subject": "Re: Book of the New Sun-Should I keep going?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "awnbreel at panix.com (Michael R Weholt) wrote:\nRegarding Jo's point about the Gyoll being the Amazon. I thought as much\nmyself, but then started thinking that we can't really say in that the\nstory must take place millions of years in the future (else the sun\nwouldn't be in such bad shape, no?) The continents would have moved\naround a bit, no? The \"true identity\" of the Ascians is fairly obvious\nand I believe there is some mention that they are from the \"continent to\nthe north\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ascia is not Asia. Really it isn't. \"Ascian\" means \"those who cast no\nshadows\", and is the Commonwealth's term for the people who live closer to\nthe equator. It is clear that the Ascians are parodies/interpretations of\nthe Chinese Communists*, but they are not on Asia.\n\nWolfe said specifically, perhaps in \"Books in _The Book of the New Sun_\",\nor perhaps somewhere in _Castle of the Otter_, that the Commonwealth is on\nSouth America, and that the Gyoll is the Amazon, but an Amazon which now\nflows to the west.\n\n*Whom, of course, Wolfe fought in the Korean War. \n\nKevin Maroney" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Beth and Richard Treitel", "address": "treitel at wco.com" }, "date": "1996-12-13T16:42:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: Book of the New Sun-Should I keep going?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "rrhmah at aol.com wrote:\nNot everyone likes the same stuff, or responds to the same stuff. So\nmaybe _The Book of the New Sun_ isn't for you." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, well, I've given Wolfe's Old, Borrowed, and Blue Sun books my best\nattempt at a fair chance, and found them almost as enjoyable as a cold in\nthe head. If I had to choose between a world wherein Wolfe wrote generic\nbooks that appealed to anyone and everyone, and one wherein he wrote\ninteresting and different books that appealed to people with specific\ntastes, I'd be glad we're in the latter; it simply happens that I don't\nhave those specific tastes.\n\nI also think they have more of a resemblance to fantasy than to ScF, but\nthat's probably another question of personal preference.\n\nRichard" } ] } ] }