Subject: Book of the New Sun-Should I keep going?

From: (unknown) <>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 01:50:10 +0000

Hello everyone.  It's good to be back.  I have just finished reading _The
Shadow of the Torturer_ and am starting on _The Claw of the Conciliator_.
I am not so sure that I want to finish the whole series though.  From
reading TSoT I get the impression that this series is Sword and Sorcery,
although some characters do have science facts, and there is some mention
of interstellar travel and aliens.  I think the world Urth is probably some
colony world that's lost contact with civilization and had degenerated.  Am
I right?

What I would really like to know is why this series is so popular.  Does it
get better in the later books?  Is there some great revelation about Urth
that is to come?  In general, just tell me something good about the book so
I can decide to finish reading it.  Help is appreciated.

Mike

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From: Jeremy P Lakatos <afn39111 at afn.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 04:15:06 +0000

>reading TSoT I get the impression that this series is Sword and Sorcery, 

Hardly. Though there are swords, and sorcery, there are no quests to be
won, no dragons to battle, no evil overlords to overthrow. It isn't Swords
and Sorcery, it's fantasy (but then, scifi is fantasy too).

>some colony world that's lost contact with civilization and had
>degenerated.  Am I right?

Yes. Except that several types of magic work: There's the mysterious
witchery of the Claw. There's time travel. There are great solar ships like
Space:1889. There are souls, which follow a bizarre and unscientific course
of action.

>What I would really like to know is why this series is so popular.  

It simply reeks with mystery. That's what I like. I don't like mysteries,
but I like mystery, and the New Sun books have a great sense of something
which is too big to be easily known.

The characters are realistic and intriguing. They have faults and they act
on them. The story would function quite well as a mainstream story (where
plot is usually rather formula but the characters are very crafted).

The story is crafted. It is written deftly and Wolfe achieves the mood he
sets out to achieve. His narrator is very cultured, with a endearing
maudlin touch.

The series is unabashedly fantasy and exemplifies what fantasy should be.
Other stories that fit this definition in my mind are Simmons' Hyperion
books, Harlan Ellison's stories, and some of PKD's novels.

>Does it get better in the later books?  Is there some great revelation
>about Urth that is to come?

It gets better, though most of the revelations are about Severian, up until
the Urth of the New Sun, where the mysteries are finally revealed.  The
book, however, is a disappointment after the original series.

---

From: Stefan Raets <sraets at ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 12:49:33 +0000

Michael Wen <mswen at [email-masked]> wrote:
>I have just finished reading _The Shadow of the Torturer_ and am starting
>on _The Claw of the Conciliator_.  I am not so sure that I want to finish
>the whole series though.

   I certainly considered it worthwhile, even one of my favorites of all
time.  The book is beautiful blend of fantasy and science fiction -
although technically it is science fiction.
   More precisely it is far future-science fiction, a small subgenre in SF.
The main theme in the subgenre is that it is set incredibly far in the
future of our own Earth.  So far that nothing remains of our present
culture.  So far that continents are no longer recognizable and the
language is radically different.  (Another excellent example in this genre:
The Dying Earth by Jack Vance).
   Many hints are given throughout the books that there used to be
technology, but that by now most of it is forgotten or derelict.  The most
obvious example is the Citadel where the books start: its towers are
spaceships.  Reread and you'll see the hints.
   Later on in the books there is a short discussion about the name Urth.
It is said that long before, when the language of the earth was different,
Urth meant Earth.  Now however it has a different meaning (I am not
entirely sure but I think it is "Past", whereas their present name for Mars
means "present".)
   Moreover, there is still technology.  You will see that Jonas is a good
example of this (don't want to spoil it for you).  Also, if you ever try
book five (The Urth of the New Sun) you'll see that the sequence was
full-blown SF from the beginning.  However, book five is definitely below
standard in my opinion.  The original four books are the best.
   It is easy to mistake this sequence for fantasy though, because Wolfe
uses so many elements of the Sword and Sorcery tradition.  Again, this is
possible because the civilization of Urth has degenerated to the point
where it is almost medieval.  And something else: without being aware of
all the background literature on Wolfe's work, reading it as a fantasy
sequence is very enjoyable.  Nothing wrong with that.
   A common interpretation of the magic in TBOTNS is that Severian is
clearly meant to be a messianic figure (saving the earth, healing the sick,
moving from outcast to leadership, ...).  He has been described as the
messiah and Apollo in one figure.  The New Sun can be interpreted in
multiple ways within this thesis.

   Anyway, before I got this deep into the book I enjoyed it a lot as a
good fantasy story, a simple plain good read, and again, nothing wrong with
that.  But if you are willing to dig, you can find a lot of depth in these
books.

Stefan

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From: rrhmah <rrhmah at aol.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:43:29 +0000

I think that _The Book of the New Sun_ is the best science fiction of the
last 25 years. And it is, in my opinion, definitely science fiction and not
fantasy.

That said, if you didn't like _The Shadow of the Torturer_, you probably
won't like the rest of the series any better.  All the elements which make
_The Book of the New Sun_ great are in _The Shadow of the Torturer_: the
mysteries, the elegant language, Severian and his complex relationship with
Thecla, his job, hints about his future, the (to me, I'm afraid, rather
obvious, though no less delightful for all that) true nature of Urth.  Not
everyone likes the same stuff, or responds to the same stuff.  So maybe
_The Book of the New Sun_ isn't for you.

Rich Horton

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From: Eddie & Jeannie Grove <grove at is001.efaxinc.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 16:54:08 +0000

I think you would know by now whether you like it.

What it has going for it is incredible writing.  I remember giving it to my
father, and he got as far as the opening torture scene.  He told me the
description was too good, and it left him nauseous.  I don't know of any
other book that stopped him in this way.

There are plenty of revelations, and lots of mystery.  Read a third of the
way through Claw, and if you don't like it by then, it probably just isn't
for you.

Eddie Grove

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From: Lawrence Person <lawrence at bga.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 18:56:49 +0000

Michael Wen <mswen at [email-masked]> wrote:
>What I would really like to know is why this series is so popular.  Does
>it get better in the later books?  Is there some great revelation about
>Urth that is to come?  In general, just tell me something good about the
>book so I can decide to finish reading it.  Help is appreciated.

It's popular because it's vivid, baroque, raises many important moral
questions (i.e., Severian's profession), poetic, erudite, and highly
imaginative (among about a hundred other virtues). As for whether you
should keep reading, I would say one of the primary considerations would be
your age and how much SF you've read. I read SHADOW at age 16, went "Whoa,
this is really baroque," and never sought out the other books. At age 26, I
read all four books and loved them. But it's definitely not work suitable
for beginning readers.

Lawrence Person

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From: Christian Claiborn <clc at adsmart.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 19:00:07 +0000

afn39111 at afn.org (Jeremy P Lakatos) writes:
>won, no dragons to battle, no evil overlords to overthrow.

Um, maybe the versions that you and I read were different?

Of *course* there's a quest.  There are bunches of them.  Severian is
searching for his identity.  He's searching for his and Urth's place in the
universe.  There are evil overlords aplenty, as I recall (although I won't
say who, because I don't want to insert spoilers).

TBotNS is, in my opinion, the greatest quest novel(s) written in the last
thirty years.

>witchery of the Claw. There's time travel. There are great solar ships
>like Space:1889. There are souls, which follow a bizarre and unscientific
>course of action.

** SPOILERS ** 

Urth is not a colony world, it's Earth.  I've always figured the Gyoll to
be the Amazon river, but I can't quite remember why now.  There's been an
ice age or twelve since our time, and the sun's gone cold.

>It gets better, though most of the revelations are about Severian, up
>until the Urth of the New Sun, where the mysteries are finally revealed.
>The book, however, is a disappointment after the original series.

I'd argue that the revelations about Urth fly fast and furious throughout
the series itself.  You learn about the witches, about the extrasolar fauna
that Urth has imported, about the future of the planet (the Green Men),
about the political system, about everything.

What I love about these books is that there's so much to discover, and
Wolfe has written the prose so carefully that there is always another fact,
or relationship, or understanding of the culture to discover.  You can look
up every term in mythology references and try to trace the bizarre images
to their source, or you can simply let it sink in and allow the epiphanies
to come naturally.

I'll stop ranting now.

Christian Longshore Claiborn

---

From: Kevin J. Maroney <kmaroney at crossover.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 00:19:28 +0000

Michael Wen <mswen at [email-masked]> wrote:
>it get better in the later books?

There are maybe a hundred people in the world who respect Wolfe more than I
do; I certainly think he's the greatest living writer of f & sf, and one of
the greatest living writers period.

With that as a preamble, I would say, if you didn't enjoy _Shadow of the
Torturer_, odds are you won't enjoy the later volumes. It is possible that
Wolfe is not to your taste, or that this specific Wolfe is not to your
taste, or that the Wolfe is not to your taste right now.

My favorite bits are indeed in the later volumes: the meeting with Typhon
in _Sword_, the stories in _Claw_, _Sword_, and (especially) the story
contest in _Citadel_, and the encounter with Master Ash in the Last House
in _Citadel_, but if you find yourself wondering "why am I reading this",
it probably isn't the right book for you right now.

Wolfe demands a great deal of attention from his readers. Most writers
don't, and not paying close attention is a hard habit to break. I know that
I miss a great deal in Wolfe's work, especially on first reading.

Kevin Maroney

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From: SCN User <bb094 at scn.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 07:43:49 +0000

The four books are really one novel chopped into 4 parts. You cannot really
read them independently for full comprehension. They should be read in
order.

I would also strongly recommend reading the sequel to the 4 volumes of the
Book of the New Sun. It is The Urth of the New Sun: Severian leaves the
Urth on an amazing journey that reveals even more about the Urth universe
and Severian's place in it. I thought Urth of the New Sun provides a more
satisfactory conclusion, that wraps up many questions left up in the air at
the end of Book of the New Sun.

I consider this series one of the greatest works of SF. It helps if you
enjoy language for it's own sake. Wolfe is one of the most powerful writers
this century. His control of language is astounding.

And now the Long Sun series is finished. Oh joy!

---

From: Michael R Weholt <awnbreel at panix.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 12:23:48 +0000

>taste, or that the Wolfe is not to your taste right now.

   This is the one truly pertinent piece of advice.  The story pretty much
continues in the same vein so if you had trouble with the first book, you
will have the same trouble further on.  If you bail out now, I do hope you
return to it someday.  It really is wonderful.

   Regarding Jo's point about the Gyoll being the Amazon.  I thought as
much myself, but then started thinking that we can't really say in that the
story must take place millions of years in the future (else the sun
wouldn't be in such bad shape, no?)  The continents would have moved around
a bit, no?  The "true identity" of the Ascians is fairly obvious and I
believe there is some mention that they are from the "continent to the
north".  South America being at some remove from "Ascia" it seems possible
that the Gyoll is not the Amazon.  Also, I believe there is some mention of
the fact that part of the Commonwealth consists of a "string of islands"
which made me think the continent may be Australia with the Indonesian
archipelagos being those islands.  But, as I say, all this must be millions
of years in the future, so who the hell knows.  Or, is there some other
source somewhere that makes all of this clear?  I'm literally just pages
from the end (after reading it for the first time) so I admit I know little
about what info might exist "outside" the book itself.

Michael R Weholt

---

From: Kevin J. Maroney <kmaroney at crossover.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 16:32:01 +0000

awnbreel at panix.com (Michael R Weholt) wrote:
>Regarding Jo's point about the Gyoll being the Amazon.  I thought as much
>myself, but then started thinking that we can't really say in that the
>wouldn't be in such bad shape, no?)  The continents would have moved
>around a bit, no?  The "true identity" of the Ascians is fairly obvious
>and I believe there is some mention that they are from the "continent to
>the north".

Ascia is not Asia. Really it isn't. "Ascian" means "those who cast no
shadows", and is the Commonwealth's term for the people who live closer to
the equator. It is clear that the Ascians are parodies/interpretations of
the Chinese Communists*, but they are not on Asia.

Wolfe said specifically, perhaps in "Books in _The Book of the New Sun_",
or perhaps somewhere in _Castle of the Otter_, that the Commonwealth is on
South America, and that the Gyoll is the Amazon, but an Amazon which now
flows to the west.

*Whom, of course, Wolfe fought in the Korean War. 

Kevin Maroney

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From: Beth and Richard Treitel <treitel at wco.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 16:42:28 +0000

rrhmah at aol.com wrote:
>Not everyone likes the same stuff, or responds to the same stuff.  So
>maybe _The Book of the New Sun_ isn't for you.

Yes, well, I've given Wolfe's Old, Borrowed, and Blue Sun books my best
attempt at a fair chance, and found them almost as enjoyable as a cold in
the head.  If I had to choose between a world wherein Wolfe wrote generic
books that appealed to anyone and everyone, and one wherein he wrote
interesting and different books that appealed to people with specific
tastes, I'd be glad we're in the latter; it simply happens that I don't
have those specific tastes.

I also think they have more of a resemblance to fantasy than to ScF, but
that's probably another question of personal preference.

Richard