{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/sflovers/147", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "sflovers", "thread": { "id": 147, "subject": "Just finished \"Shadow of the Torturer\"...confused as hell.", "messages": 11, "voices": 9, "first": "1998-04-05T13:02:29+00:00", "last": "1998-04-07T06:35:30+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Soundcage", "address": "soundcge at erols.com" }, "date": "1998-04-05T13:02:29+00:00", "subject": "Just finished \"Shadow of the Torturer\"...confused as hell.", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I finished Wolfe's \"The Shadow of the Torturer\" last night. I have no idea\nwhere this story is going. I feel the same way I did after finishing\n\"Chapterhouse: Dune\" and \"Stars in My Pocket...\".\n\nTo those who've read the entire Book of the New Sun: does it get better\nthan this or can I expect to be confused all through the series?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Coyu", "address": "coyu at aol.com" }, "date": "1998-04-05T13:25:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: Just finished \"Shadow of the Torturer\"...confused as hell.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have no idea where this story is going." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What specifically are you confused about?\n\nIt is possible that Severian has some presentiment about his future. In\nfact, Wolfe will use every SF device applicable to make sure of it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Endymion9", "address": "endymion9 at aol.com" }, "date": "1998-04-05T17:39:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: Just finished \"Shadow of the Torturer\"...confused as hell.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I love Gene Wolfe and The Book Of The New Sun is my favorite all time\nseries. However, I advise all readers new to Wolfe, don't make the\ndestination the end-all, enjoy the journey. If Wolfe to sit you down and\nclearly explain all his obscure references forget it. He reminds me of the\nAlfred Hitchcock tv series where the end was never clearly shown. Usually\na show prompted discussion and differing opinions on what happened.\n\nWolfe takes you on a grande journey, if you don't enjoy the trip, then\nyou're not going to enjoy Wolfe IMO.\n\nDennis" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ken Luther", "address": "kluther at indiana.edu" }, "date": "1998-04-05T20:03:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: Just finished \"Shadow of the Torturer\"...confused as hell.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, I just finished SotT last week :). While I was reading it, I got the\nsensation that I did when reading The Gormenghast Trilogy - that the story\nis more about the setting, the people, and the environment than it is about\nsome linear plot progressing from Point A to Point B to Point C. It was\nenough to intrigue me, and I'm looking forward to reading Claw of the\nConciliator soon...\n\nKen Luther" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Dillon", "address": "dq405 at freenet.carleton.ca" }, "date": "1998-04-05T20:33:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: Just finished \"Shadow of the Torturer\"...confused as hell.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've read THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN twice (took detailed notes the second\ntime). By all means, try it.\n\nI have to admit, though, that I still prefer the work he did in the early\n70's: THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS and stories like \"The Death of Doctor\nIsland,\" \"The Hero as Werewolf,\" \"The Island of Doctor Death and Other\nStories,\" and \"The Changeling\" mean far more to me than anything Wolfe has\nwritten since: they have a quiet anger and compassion that have haunted me\nfor decades, and I reread them constantly. I'd recommend them to anyone,\nwhereas THE NEW SUN, while admirable, seems more like an interesting\ntechnical exercise designed for habitual SF/ fantasy readers.\n\nBut in regards to your question: yes, Wolfe clears up his mysteries and\nties up his loose ends; that fascinating vagueness, those eerie hints\nscattered throughout THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER, are all explained away in\ngreat detail. Oh, well....\n\nMark Dillon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John VanSickle", "address": "vansickl at erols.com" }, "date": "1998-04-05T21:12:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: Just finished \"Shadow of the Torturer\"...confused as hell.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mark Dillon wrote:\nBut in regards to your question: yes, Wolfe clears up his mysteries and\nties up his loose ends; that fascinating vagueness, those eerie hints\nscattered throughout THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER, are all explained away in\ngreat detail. Oh, well...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to mention that Severian's upcoming career change is state rather\nexplicitly near the beginning of the first book. That's as near to a\nspoiler as I dare get.\n\nJohn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Soundcage", "address": "soundcge at erols.com" }, "date": "1998-04-06T04:23:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: Just finished \"Shadow of the Torturer\"...confused as hell.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What specifically are you confused about?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just find myself rereading passages (and entire chapters sometimes)\nbecause the language makes my head hurt. Also I find myself looking for\nany and all symbolism (which I admit freely that I'm terrible at...for me a\nbanana is almost always a banana) in the plot points of the book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is possible that Severian has some presentiment about his future. In\nfact, Wolfe will use every SF device applicable to make sure of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This much I got right from the beginning (thank goodness). It's the way he\ngets there that's got my head spinning." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "J. B. Cattley", "address": "jbc at mpx.com.au" }, "date": "1998-04-06T08:56:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: Just finished \"Shadow of the Torturer\"...confused as hell.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I finished Wolfe's \"The Shadow of the Torturer\" last night. I have no\nidea where this story is going." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's the whole idea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To those who've read the entire Book of the New Sun: does it get better\nthan this or can I expect to be confused all through the series?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Both. _Excellent_ writing, but don't look for any definite answers,\nbecause you won't get them. It ain't the being there, it's the getting\nthere." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Coyu", "address": "coyu at aol.com" }, "date": "1998-04-06T15:20:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: Just finished \"Shadow of the Torturer\"...confused as hell.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I just find myself rereading passages (and entire chapters sometimes)\nbecause the language makes my head hurt." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it the words, or the sentence structure? Wolfe has a partial glossary in\n_Castle of the Otter_, which is included in _Castle of Days_. There's also\na _Lexicon Urthus_, by Michel Andre-Driussi, but there's a lot of\nextraneous cabalistic stuff in it, which the text does not support. It's\nalso filled with spoilers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also I find myself looking for any and all symbolism (which I admit freely\nthat I'm terrible at...for me a banana is almost always a banana) in the\nplot points of the book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You don't have to read it for symbols. The coin is a coin, the sword is a\nsword, the roses are roses are roses. They have other functions,\nsure. Wolfe designed these books to be re-read, so don't worry about\ngetting everything straight on the first sweep." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matt Austern", "address": "austern at sgi.com" }, "date": "1998-04-06T18:19:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: Just finished \"Shadow of the Torturer\"...confused as hell.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "soundcge at erols.com writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To those who've read the entire Book of the New Sun: does it get better\nthan this or can I expect to be confused all through the series?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You won't understand it all the first time; don't worry about it.\n\nThe problem isn't symbolism, but interconnections: lots of links both\nbackward and foward. It's a wonderfully intricate book." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "daryl", "address": "daryl at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca" }, "date": "1998-04-07T06:35:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: Just finished \"Shadow of the Torturer\"...confused as hell.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To those who've read the entire Book of the New Sun: does it get better\nthan this or can I expect to be confused all through the series?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The narrator suffers from an inability to forget. That will necessarily\nlead to the inclusion of a lot of extraneous detail (from an adventure-saga\nperspective) because Severian has not had the experience of trying to\ndecide what is important enough to remember.\n\n My advice: go with the flow. Keep an open mind, and the current will\ntake you where you want to go. All things come to he who waits.\n Re: symbolism, don't bother. It takes place in a future so far removed\nfrom the present that our cultural context is well-nigh irrelevant.\n I'd pay more attention to the questions raised by such concepts as that\nof a professional torturer with a high standard of ethics, or by Severian's\nconflicting loyalties.\n\n Besides, TSotT is just the first volume in a _very_ long novel\n[novelissimo?], so you have a ways to go. Half the fun (or more) is in the\njourney; the destination is the reason for the telling, but not the point\nof the reading. Can't be more clear without spoiling it for you.\n\n And no, sf doesn't get better than this. If you feel that you are in\nover your head, maybe wait a couple years until you have some more life\nexperience [I am assuming that you are relatively young] that will give you\nsome insight into Severian's dilemmae." } ] } ] }