Subject: Just finished "Shadow of the Torturer"...confused as hell.

From: Soundcage <soundcge at erols.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 13:02:29 +0000

I finished Wolfe's "The Shadow of the Torturer" last night.  I have no idea
where this story is going.  I feel the same way I did after finishing
"Chapterhouse: Dune" and "Stars in My Pocket...".

To those who've read the entire Book of the New Sun: does it get better
than this or can I expect to be confused all through the series?

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From: Coyu <coyu at aol.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 13:25:47 +0000

>I have no idea where this story is going.

What specifically are you confused about?

It is possible that Severian has some presentiment about his future.  In
fact, Wolfe will use every SF device applicable to make sure of it.

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From: Endymion9 <endymion9 at aol.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 17:39:59 +0000

I love Gene Wolfe and The Book Of The New Sun is my favorite all time
series.  However, I advise all readers new to Wolfe, don't make the
destination the end-all, enjoy the journey.  If Wolfe to sit you down and
clearly explain all his obscure references forget it.  He reminds me of the
Alfred Hitchcock tv series where the end was never clearly shown.  Usually
a show prompted discussion and differing opinions on what happened.

Wolfe takes you on a grande journey, if you don't enjoy the trip, then
you're not going to enjoy Wolfe IMO.

Dennis

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From: Ken Luther <kluther at indiana.edu>
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 20:03:38 +0000

Hey, I just finished SotT last week :).  While I was reading it, I got the
sensation that I did when reading The Gormenghast Trilogy - that the story
is more about the setting, the people, and the environment than it is about
some linear plot progressing from Point A to Point B to Point C.  It was
enough to intrigue me, and I'm looking forward to reading Claw of the
Conciliator soon...

Ken Luther

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From: Mark Dillon <dq405 at freenet.carleton.ca>
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 20:33:13 +0000

I've read THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN twice (took detailed notes the second
time). By all means, try it.

I have to admit, though, that I still prefer the work he did in the early
70's: THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS and stories like "The Death of Doctor
Island," "The Hero as Werewolf," "The Island of Doctor Death and Other
Stories," and "The Changeling" mean far more to me than anything Wolfe has
written since: they have a quiet anger and compassion that have haunted me
for decades, and I reread them constantly. I'd recommend them to anyone,
whereas THE NEW SUN, while admirable, seems more like an interesting
technical exercise designed for habitual SF/ fantasy readers.

But in regards to your question: yes, Wolfe clears up his mysteries and
ties up his loose ends; that fascinating vagueness, those eerie hints
scattered throughout THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER, are all explained away in
great detail. Oh, well....

Mark Dillon

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From: John VanSickle <vansickl at erols.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 21:12:45 +0000

>great detail. Oh, well....

Not to mention that Severian's upcoming career change is state rather
explicitly near the beginning of the first book.  That's as near to a
spoiler as I dare get.

John

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From: Soundcage <soundcge at erols.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 04:23:44 +0000

>What specifically are you confused about?

I just find myself rereading passages (and entire chapters sometimes)
because the language makes my head hurt.  Also I find myself looking for
any and all symbolism (which I admit freely that I'm terrible at...for me a
banana is almost always a banana) in the plot points of the book.

>fact, Wolfe will use every SF device applicable to make sure of it.

This much I got right from the beginning (thank goodness).  It's the way he
gets there that's got my head spinning.

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From: J. B. Cattley <jbc at mpx.com.au>
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 08:56:21 +0000

>I finished Wolfe's "The Shadow of the Torturer" last night.  I have no
>idea where this story is going.

That's the whole idea.

Yes. Both.  _Excellent_ writing, but don't look for any definite answers,
because you won't get them. It ain't the being there, it's the getting
there.

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From: Coyu <coyu at aol.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:20:40 +0000

>because the language makes my head hurt.

Is it the words, or the sentence structure? Wolfe has a partial glossary in
_Castle of the Otter_, which is included in _Castle of Days_. There's also
a _Lexicon Urthus_, by Michel Andre-Driussi, but there's a lot of
extraneous cabalistic stuff in it, which the text does not support. It's
also filled with spoilers.

>Also I find myself looking for any and all symbolism (which I admit freely
>that I'm terrible at...for me a banana is almost always a banana) in the
>plot points of the book.

You don't have to read it for symbols. The coin is a coin, the sword is a
sword, the roses are roses are roses. They have other functions,
sure. Wolfe designed these books to be re-read, so don't worry about
getting everything straight on the first sweep.

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From: Matt Austern <austern at sgi.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 18:19:54 +0000

>than this or can I expect to be confused all through the series?

You won't understand it all the first time; don't worry about it.

The problem isn't symbolism, but interconnections: lots of links both
backward and foward.  It's a wonderfully intricate book.

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From: daryl <daryl at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 06:35:30 +0000

>than this or can I expect to be confused all through the series?

   The narrator suffers from an inability to forget. That will necessarily
lead to the inclusion of a lot of extraneous detail (from an adventure-saga
perspective) because Severian has not had the experience of trying to
decide what is important enough to remember.

   My advice: go with the flow. Keep an open mind, and the current will
take you where you want to go. All things come to he who waits.
   Re: symbolism, don't bother. It takes place in a future so far removed
from the present that our cultural context is well-nigh irrelevant.
   I'd pay more attention to the questions raised by such concepts as that
of a professional torturer with a high standard of ethics, or by Severian's
conflicting loyalties.

   Besides, TSotT is just the first volume in a _very_ long novel
[novelissimo?], so you have a ways to go. Half the fun (or more) is in the
journey; the destination is the reason for the telling, but not the point
of the reading. Can't be more clear without spoiling it for you.

   And no, sf doesn't get better than this. If you feel that you are in
over your head, maybe wait a couple years until you have some more life
experience [I am assuming that you are relatively young] that will give you
some insight into Severian's dilemmae.