{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/sflovers/51", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "sflovers", "thread": { "id": 51, "subject": "Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun", "messages": 12, "voices": 10, "first": "1986-01-27T22:25:37+00:00", "last": "1986-03-19T03:45:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kim Helliwell", "address": "analog!kim at caip.rutgers.edu" }, "date": "1986-01-27T22:25:37+00:00", "subject": "Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've seen several kudos on this newsgroup for Gene Wolfe's Book of\nthe New Sun, and they nearly always prompt the following train of\nthought in my mind:\n\nWhat is it that you who love it (and read and re-read it avidly) see\nin it that I am missing? I've made it to the end of the second\nvolume, the one which ends with the invitation to journey further\nwith the protagonist, but does not blame the reader if he chooses\nnot to--saying \"it is no easy journey\". Even up to that point it is\nno easy journey, so I've paused long to consider whether I want to\ngo any further!\n\nI must be missing some crucial point--is it something that will come\nclear if I go on, or would the net advise me to abandon it because,\n\"if you have to ask, you ain't never going to know!\"\n\nIf someone could explain in his own words what it is that Wolfe is\ntrying to do with this work, it might help." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michaelntz", "address": "csd2!krantz at caip.rutgers.edu" }, "date": "1986-01-31T02:03:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We are asked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If someone could explain in his own words what it is that Wolfe is\ntrying to do with this work, it might help.\nhplabs!analog!kim" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What Wolfe is trying to do is raise science fiction to a higher\ndegree of literary value than has EVER EXISTED, beyond question. I\nhave read a hell of a lot of SF and a hell of a lot more `serious'\nfiction than that (I'm an MA in literature/writing), and all I can\ntell you, though the Book Of The New Sun is too long and complex for\nyour question to be answerable outside of an extended thesis (shit,\nI won't pretend I really understand the damn books - they defy\nthat), is that if you are not blown away by now, at the end of the\nThe_Claw_Of_The_Conciliator, if you are not shaking your head at\nWolfe's awesome scope, his dazzling imagination, his miraculously\nskilled prose - well, man, go back to clowns like Heinlein and\nAsimov.\n\nGene Wolfe is, quite simply, the best novelist ever to write in the\nscience fiction genre. His prose, his ideas - all of it. The best.\nHands down.\n\nMichael Krantz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "ISM780!jimb", "address": "ism780!jimb at caip.rutgers.edu" }, "date": "1986-02-04T15:32:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I will straddle the fence (and probably incur anatomical\ndifficulties as a result). The first two quotes above I agree with,\nthough I do not associate myself with some of the snotty tone in the\nsections I deleted.\n\nAs to the third quote, while I find it arguable, it *is* arguable,\ne.g., can't be dismissed out of hand. The Book of the New Sun is\nnot for plot readers. Wolfe's use of plot is almost completely\ncentered on progressive revelation and illumination of character,\nthat kernel of all good fiction.\n\nTBOTNS is one definition by example of tour de force. He is using\nSF convention and imagery combined with classical literary technique\nto portray the life, conflicts, and character development of a\nfascinating individual in a fascinating world.\n\nTBOTNS is written with and to a different sensibility than most SF,\nand like all literature, you must accept it on its own terms if it\nis going to \"work\" for you. If you don't, or for whatever reason\ncan't, such is life. Remember, concerning matters of taste, there\nis no disputing. (An aphorism that antedates my birth by a good\ncouple of millenia.)\n\nJim Brunet\nihnp4/ima/ism780B\nhao/ico/ism780B" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tim Maroney", "address": "hoptoad!tim at caip.rutgers.edu" }, "date": "1986-02-05T07:59:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Book of the New Sun is in some ways a difficult work. If you\ndon't like it, then by all means read something you will like better.\nHowever, since the question was why others like it...\n\nFirst, ignore the person who said the world is unique. Wrong. Jack\nVance used it frequently, though Wolfe's variation incorporates some\nCordwainer Smith as well (you know, when he says \"Atomic Age\" and it\n*really* sounds like \"Bronze Age\"). Nonetheless, it is fascinating\nto modern people to explore a perspective from which we are not only\nrelegated to a historical junkpile, but completely forgotten and\nproven to have no significance whatsoever in the overall history of\nthe world.\n\nThe prose is stunningly crafted. That in itself is not enough to\nmake a book enjoyable -- see William Gibson, who people will get\nsick of long before 1988. Nonetheless, at this level it is the best\nscience fiction ever: it almost attains the stature of an epic poem.\n\nRelated to thhe quality of the prose is the quality of the imagery,\nwhich is peculiarly evocative. All the grains and colors of a Wolfe\nscene leap out with all the attribnutes of a vivid three-dimensional\nperception remembered from childhood. This is done without long,\ntedious description or focusing on surface features.\n\nThe plots are what really make the series. For some reason I have\nyet to figure out, the characters and events really get into my\nbrain and reconfigure it into an Escher lithograph. Their raw\npotency defies description or summary. If these are not moving you,\nI don't know what to tell you. Do they seem arbitrary? Pointless?\nThen you and I have different worlds, or at least different ways of\nreading.\n\nI hope this helps. Try to read the Book as if it were an epic poem\nin blank verse, and you may come to appreciate it more.\n\nTim Maroney" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "ISM780!jimb", "address": "ism780!jimb at caip.rutgers.edu" }, "date": "1986-02-06T15:12:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thought I'd jump back in again. Jim Gardner's response (jagardner @\nwatmath) is excellent. I wish *I* had written it and I second\npractically everything he said -- didn't see anything I wouldn't\nwholeheartedly agree with on one read/think. Thanks, Jim.\n\nJim Brunet\nihnp4/ima/ism780B\nhao/ico/ism780B" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tim Maroney", "address": "hoptoad!tim at caip.rutgers.edu" }, "date": "1986-02-14T18:33:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "patcl at hammer.UUCP (Pat Clancy) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I read Shadow of the Torturer and thought it was horrible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll second that! This was an outstandingly bad novel. Yet it\nseems that every year or so the Wulf-cultists must issue forth onto\nthe net to demonstrate why there's such a large and uncritical\nmarket for so much bad SF." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This \"cult\" happens to include more than half of the SFWA, the\nScience Fiction Writers of America, as evidenced by the Nebula\nselections. I would hardly call the SFWA uncritical, or large for\nthat matter. Perhaps the writers know something you don't? (There,\nwe're even insult for insult.)\n\nTim Maroney, Electronic Village Idiot" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Steven K. Zoltan Brust", "address": "starfire!brust at caip.rutgers.edu" }, "date": "1986-02-27T20:56:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I'm finally moved to take up this gauntlet. Whatever else has\nhappened, the original query (\"What d'you guys see in this,\nanyway?\") was quite reasonable and deserves to be answered.\n\nIt is sad that I can't answer it.\n\nI will, however, describe my experience with the books. Okay. I\npicked up SHADOW OF THE TORTURER and read about a third of it,\ndiscovered that it hadn't grabbed me, and stopped reading it. For\nthe next year, I kept hearing from friends I respected how much they\nwere enjoying the books. In particular, I was hearing from those\nwho enjoyed the sounds of words, that is, the work of those who are\naware of the beauty of the language.\n\nWell, okay, I like that stuff, too. That's why I'm a Zelazny nut,\nand why I like Orson Scott Card, Jane Yolen, Patricia McKillip, etc.\netc.\n\nSo I decided to give the books another try, this time forcing myself\nto read slowly and carefully. It worked for me, and I am now very\nglad that I did. For those who enjoy the sound of English well\nwrought, these books will tickle that. For those who enjoy a good\nstory, it really is here, it just takes a while to realize it. The\nbook is screamingly funny, without ever falling out of its conceit\n(including a multi-page comparison of the art of torturing to the\nart of writing; I almost hurt myself laughing.) The book had me\nclose to tears at times, yet was never a tragedy. The part of me\nthat likes to play with ideas just as ideas was tickled all the way\nthrough, but never quite in ways I expected. On my next few\nreadings, when I start looking for \"What is really going on here;\nwhat is the author saying?\" there is enough meat that I don't go\naway hungry.\n\nOkay? This certainly won't convince anyone who didn't like it that\nhe ought to, but maybe this will help whoever asked the initial\nquestion to understand why some of us enjoy the books.\n\nskzb" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charley Wingate", "address": "umcp-cs!mangoe at caip.rutgers.edu" }, "date": "1986-03-06T14:37:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've found that I really like Wolfe's short stories. Shortly after\nthe BotNS came out, I picked up _Gene Wolfe's Book of Days_, which I\nenjoyed immensely. I could never get into the BotNS, though, for a\ncouple of reasons. WHen I got _Free Live Free_ a few months ago, I\nhad hoped that things would be different. Alas, I have temporarily\ngiven up it, about halfway through.\n\n Wolfe's style always seems to get to me after a few hundred\npages. I can take it in small doses, but the prospect of page after\npage of it stretching out before me always makes me faintly queasy.\n_Free Live Free_ manages to overcome this by a certain lightness\nwhich is more like his short stories. The BotNS, though, moves\nalong with the ponderous grace of the Vehicle Tranporter pulling\naway from the VAB. Also, the odd word trick doesn't work for me.\nSInce it's such a high-wire act, one slip ruins it, and when I ran\nacross \"palaquin\" used in the wrong context, the spell was broken.\nNot caring for the subject matter all that much anyway, I've never\nseriously attempted to pick it up again.\n\nIts certainly true that Wolfe requires rather deliberate and careful\nreading. That's partly why I haven't finished _Free Live Free_;\nthings have gotten in the way and I haven't had the time to devote\nto it.\n\nC. Wingate" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Randy Murray", "address": "cbosgd!rtm at caip.rutgers.edu" }, "date": "1986-03-07T19:42:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've really been shocked at all the net-talk about how difficult it\nis to read Wolfe's work. His novel and short stories have been\nabsolutely spellbinding to me. It seem as if a number of you claim\nto understand fiction (let alone science fiction), yet haven't\nlearned to willingly suspend your disbelief.\n\nWhile recently reading one of his short stories \"The eyeflash\nmiracles\" I had one of those revelations that makes you want to\nabuse innocent and uncaring bystanders. Wolfe understands that the\nreader is blind. The reader can never truly see anything, no matter\nhow detailed or complex the description. The writer can only delude\nhis audience into believing they see and understand. Wolfe can be\npainfully truthful in his fiction. The reader must not fix images\nin his mind and rely on them as stable.\n\nI can't believe that Wolfe is causing such a stir because he uses\ndifficult language. The work in BotNS comes in not fighting the\nauthor. Let him take you where he wants to go. And if you think\nyou were confused with BotNS, you should try one of his earlier\nnovels, _Peace_.\n\nYou can get lost in Wolfe's work. Why not sit in the dark and let\nGene tell you a story.\n\nBy the way, I was just introduced to the net.\nI love it.\nSo let's hear from y'all." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "rti-sel!wfi", "address": "rti-sel!wfi at caip.rutgers.edu" }, "date": "1986-03-10T23:25:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mangoe at umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've found that I really like Wolfe's short stories. Shortly after\nthe BotNS came out, I picked up _Gene Wolfe's Book of Days_, which\nI enjoyed immensely." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then you should check out another collection of his stories, \"The\nIsland Of Dr. Death And Other Stories And Other Stories,\" in my\nopinion a collection that's superior to the \"Book Of Days.\"\n\nCheers, Bill Ingogly" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matt Verner", "address": "inuxh!verner at caip.rutgers.edu" }, "date": "1986-03-18T03:35:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mangoe at umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've found that I really like Wolfe's short stories. Shortly\nafter the BotNS came out, I picked up _Gene Wolfe's Book of Days_,\nwhich I enjoyed immensely. ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then you should check out another collection of his stories, \"The\nIsland Of Dr. Death And Other Stories And Other Stories,\" in my\nopinion a collection that's superior to the \"Book Of Days.\"\n Cheers, Bill Ingogly" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could someone please tell me how I can aquire these obscure books?\nI am constantly reading about this or that book from Gene Wolfe and]\nwhen I go around the local book stores in Indy they invariably don't\nhave anything but books that appeal to hormone-drenched teenagers\nthat thought the novelization of 'Star Wars' should have won a Hugo.\n\nIs there a mailing list or catalog I can subscribe to? Yes, I am\nalready a suscriber to the SF Book Club. Passable at best.\n\nDrop me a line, if you have any info!\nP. O. Box 1008" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "ccvaxa!wombat", "address": "ccvaxa!wombat at caip.rutgers.edu" }, "date": "1986-03-19T03:45:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gene Wolfe himself will sell you signed editions by mail. An old\nScience Fiction Chronicle laying around here lists his *Books of\nDays* for $16 (hardback, first edition, signed) from Gene Wolfe, POB\n69, Barrington, IL 60010. If you can find an issue of SFC or Locus\nthey have lots of advertising from mail-order firms.\n\nWombat" } ] } ] }