{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/sflovers/86", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "sflovers", "thread": { "id": 86, "subject": "Pandora/Gene Wolfe", "messages": 6, "voices": 5, "first": "1991-02-07T01:31:15+00:00", "last": "1991-02-12T03:17:40+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "cynthia teague", "address": "cteague at uvmvm.bitnet" }, "date": "1991-02-07T01:31:15+00:00", "subject": "Pandora/Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have just finished *Pandora by Holly Hollander* by Gene Wolfe. This is a\nmystery, not sf, but since I read it because I had seen his name here, I'm\nposting my comments to this list. It was an okay book, neither memorable\nnor unpleasant, which is the overall impression of him I've gotten from\nthis list. What really threw me, though, is that the book is set in my\nhome town. Wolfe has taken the town, made some transparent and\nfunny-sounding name changes, and used it as is. For example, Barrington\nbecomes Barton, which is surrounded by Barton Hills (the rich part of town)\nand South Barton (still fairly rural); their counterparts surround\nBarrington. A nearby town is called Palestine instead of Palatine. The\nChicago & Northwestern railway (CNW) becomes the Chicago, Wisconsin and\nNorthern (CWN). A store called Catchpenny is transformed into Snatchpenny.\nLake County is renamed Pool County. A local newscaster named Walter\nJacobson shows up as Ben Jacobs. And the scene of the crime, the Barton\nAntiques and Art Fair, really exists as the Barrington Art dFair, though\nit's much less elaborate and snooty than Wolfe describes it. The high\nschool really is as big as he says, though. What bothers me is not that he\nused my home town, but that he was so unimaginative about it. Pool County,\nindeed! (And I'm pretty sure that the town he calls Dawn is really\nHalfday, a much more plausible name, though I haven't compared distances on\nthe map.) Sara Peretsky's books make me nostalgic for my old neighborhood\nin Chicago (several blocks north of and somewhat seedier than hers), and\nEmma Bull makes Milwaukee vivid, even though I've never been there. But\nWolfe seems to have taken a city plan and gone through it like a high\nschool plagiarist, changing a name here and there to avoid coming up with\nsomething original. It really makes me wonder about the originality of his\nscience fiction. Any comments?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "R o d Johnson", "address": "rjohnson at vela.acs.oakland.edu" }, "date": "1991-02-08T04:03:18+00:00", "subject": "Re: Pandora/Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "CTEAGUE at uvmvm.BITNET (cynthia teague) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have just finished *Pandora by Holly Hollander* by Gene Wolfe. This is\na mystery, not sf, but since I read it because I had seen his name here,\nI'm posting my comments to this list. It was an okay book, neither\nmemorable nor unpleasant, which is the overall impression of him I've\ngotten from this list." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm surprised that's the impression you've gotten from this\n{newsgroup|list}, but let me try to correct it a little bit. In my\nopinion, Wolfe at his best is one of the most memorable of SF authors; \"his\nbest\" being \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\", the Book of the New Sun tetralogy\nand its appendix \"The Urth of the New Sun\", and various stories, many\ncollected in \"The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories and Other\nStories.\" Wolfe is really sui generis; the fact that he's been dabbling in\ngenre lately (and turning out fairly uninspired stuff, witness\n\"Castleview\") shouldn't blind you to the considerable, and somewhat\nuncategorizable, virtues of his Really Good Stuff.\n\n(By the way, \"Castleview\" takes place somewhere around your hometown too.\nI imagine it as out past Aurora somewhere.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Emma Bull makes Milwaukee vivid, even though I've never been there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Neat trick, considering she writes about Minneapolis. :) Taking the War for\nthe Oaks tour of Mpls is pretty fun; you should do it if you ever get the\nchance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But Wolfe seems to have taken a city plan and gone through it like a high\nschool plagiarist, changing a name here and there to avoid coming up with\nsomething original. It really makes me wonder about the originality of\nhis science fiction. Any comments?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe is a tricky guy, and I think a restless one. He seems to go through\nphases of experimentation, which can produce failures, followed by\nmasterpieces. Right now he seems to be putting out busy, chaotic, cryptic\nnovels. Who knows what great work might follow from this? Several\npost-New Sun works have been failures, in my opinion - \"There are Doors\",\n\"Castleview\", \"Free Live Free\" but, the successes are as original as\nanything you could ever wish for, believe me. Even if you *hate* \"Soldier\nof the Mist\", for instance, it's difficult to see it as being imitative of\nanything else in recent English fiction, I think. Don't give up on him,\nand *try* the New Sun books (\"The Shadow of the Torturer\" is where it\nstarts).\n\nRod Johnson" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "seth alan tisue", "address": "tisu at quads.uchicago.edu" }, "date": "1991-02-08T08:57:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: Pandora/Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "rjohnson at vela.acs.oakland.edu (R o d Johnson) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe is a tricky guy, and I think a restless one. He seems to go through\nphases of experimentation, which can produce failures, followed by\nmasterpieces. Right now he seems to be putting out busy, chaotic, cryptic\nnovels. Who knows what great work might follow from this? Several\npost-New Sun works have been failures, in my opinion - \"There are Doors\",\n\"Castleview\", \"Free Live Free\" but, the successes are as original as\nanything you could ever wish for, believe me. Even if you *hate* \"Soldier\nof the Mist\", for instance, it's difficult to see it as being imitative of\nanything else in recent English fiction, I think." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree about ~There Are Doors\"... That was the dullest book I've ever\nread by him; such an interesting premise, too. The first half wasn't bad\nand then the book just spiralled around aimlessly after that. Haven't read\n\"Castleview\" yet, nor \"Soldier of the Mist\". With that series, I'm waiting\nuntil Wolfe finishes writing all the books, so I can read them in order\nwithout long pauses in between. My first foray into SotM made it pretty\nclear that it was going to be at least as (delightfully!) difficult to\nassimilate as \"The Book of the New Sun\", which I could never have followed\nif I'd had to wait a year between books. Oh well.\n\nSeth Tisue\nUniversity of Chicago \nP.O. Box 5975" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Shawn L. Baird", "address": "bairds at eecs.cs.pdx.edu" }, "date": "1991-02-09T08:44:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: Pandora/Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe is a tricky guy, and I think a restless one. He seems to go\nthrough phases of experimentation, which can produce failures, followed\nby masterpieces. Right now he seems to be putting out busy, chaotic,\ncryptic novels. Who knows what great work might follow from this?\nSeveral post-New Sun works have been failures, in my opinion - \"There are\nDoors\", \"Castleview\", \"Free Live Free\" but, the successes are as original\nas anything you could ever wish for, believe [...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree about ~There Are Doors\"... That was the dullest book I've ever\nread by him; such an interesting premise, too. The first half wasn't bad\nand then the book just spiralled around aimlessly after that. Haven't\nread \"Castleview\" yet, nor \"Soldier of the Mist\". With that series, I'm\nwaiting [...]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have to say that I liked _There Are Doors_, although I wouldn't count it\nas one of my favorites. I haven't read _Castleview_ yet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "without long pauses in between. My first foray into SotM made it pretty\nclear that it was going to be at least as (delightfully!) difficult to\nassimilate as \"The Book of the New Sun\", which I could never have followed\nif I'd had to wait a year between books. Oh well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_Soldier of the Mist_ is an excellent book, one of my favorite Gene Wolfe\nnovels. I didn't find _Soldier of Arete_ as pleasurable, unfortunately. As\nfar as short stories go, you can't beat _The Death of Doctor Island and\nOther Stories and Other Stories_ or his rather new anthology _Endangered\nSpecies_. Just a few years ago, or so, the Weird Tales magazine was\nrestarted with the first issue being about half dedicated to Gene Wolfe. It\nhad some very good stories.\n I must say that I feel that one of the prerequisites for being a Gene\nWolfe fan is being able to take a sort of surreal outlook on life and, in\nfact, one has to wonder sometimes if these stories aren't associated with\nhallucinogens or some such. Sometimes, I almost feel like I'm full of\nhallucinogens because it all gets so weird.\n\nShawn L. Baird\n17650 SE Cason Rd." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan Tilque", "address": "dant at mtdoom.wr.tek.com" }, "date": "1991-02-10T00:27:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: Pandora/Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "tisu at quads.uchicago.edu (seth alan tisue) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[...] \"Soldier of the Mist\". With that series, I'm waiting until Wolfe\nfinishes writing all the books, so I can read them in order without long\npauses in between. My first foray into SotM made it pretty clear that it\nwas going to be at least as (delightfully!) difficult to assimilate as\n\"The Book of the New Sun\", which I could never have followed if I'd had to\nwait a year between books. Oh well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Based on a number of internal references (both in the prefaces and in the\ntext), I do not expect anymore \"Solder of\" books. Unfortunately, I can't\nsay why without giving some pretty serious spoilers, and since you haven't\nread the books yet, I'm sure you don't want them.\n\nAs for waiting for all the books, that's a good idea. After reading\n_Soldier of Arete_, I felt the need to go back and reread _Mist_ again and\nthen reread _Arete_ immediately after. I also felt like I should be taking\nnotes - I kept forgetting everything from more than a chapter or two\nbefore.\n\nDan Tilque" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "seth alan tisue", "address": "tisu at quads.uchicago.edu" }, "date": "1991-02-12T03:17:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: Pandora/Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "bairds at eecs.cs.pdx.edu (Shawn L. Baird) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_Soldier of the Mist_ is an excellent book, one of my favorite Gene Wolfe\nnovels. I didn't find _Soldier of Arete_ as pleasurable, unfortunately. As\nfar as short stories go, you can't beat _The Death of Doctor Island and\nOther Stories and Other Stories_ or his rather new anthology _Endangered\nSpecies_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I FINALLY found a copy of TDoDIaOS after literally years of looking. Dug\nit up in a used bookstore. I think it went out of print due to the demise\nof Pocket's SF line in the early eighties. I enjoyed _Endangered Species_\nquite a bit, although I don't think any of Wolfe's stories match any of his\nnovels. This is probably just a personal preference I have for novels in\nalmost all cases. If I thought about for a while I might be able to argue\nthat his talents are more suited to novel-length work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I must say that I feel that one of the prerequisites for being a Gene\nWolfe fan is being able to take a sort of surreal outlook on life and, in\nfact, one has to wonder sometimes if these stories aren't associated with\nhallucinogens or some such. Sometimes, I almost feel like I'm full of\nhallucinogens because it all gets so weird." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I strongly doubt that Wolfe takes drugs. From what I've read I've gotten\nthe impression that he's straight as can be; Korean war veteran and editor\nof a plant engineering magazine. (Then again, at least one prospective\nSupreme Court justice smoked pot in the sixties.)\n\nSeth Tisue\nUniversity of Chicago \nP.O. Box 5975" } ] } ] }