{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/sflovers/96", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "sflovers", "thread": { "id": 96, "subject": "Gene Wolfe", "messages": 5, "voices": 5, "first": "1992-04-05T06:14:35+00:00", "last": "1992-04-14T06:51:53+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Sara Beck", "address": "becks at taunivm.tau.ac.il" }, "date": "1992-04-05T06:14:35+00:00", "subject": "Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I admire Wolfe's style, but his books definitely put me off. I think I\nknow why and I wonder if other people have thought the same or if it's only\nme.\n\nHere follows an attempt to discuss an inherently loaded question\nthoughtfully and without either using or exciting flames. For my next\ntrick I will check the gas tank with a lit match.\n\nAnyway, I think that Wolfe's (or his characters) consistently have a weird\nattitude towards women. Women in Wolfe's books seem to be a somewhat alien\nspecies. They are assumed to have their own agenda which is completely\nhidden from men, and to be more or less dangerous to men. \"There are\nDoors\" is exhibit A, of course. Also check out the references to sexual\nactivity in the Torturer books (honesty compells me to admit I only read\nthe first 2); the atmosphere is like a soldier reporting on an encounter\nwith the enemy. Yes he has a right to feel that way, yes it may be part of\nhis character's psyches, and yes it is infinitely preferable to the violent\nmisogyny of so much modern writing (have I deflected all the incoming\nflames?), but it puts me off.\n\nS. Beck" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "millerl", "address": "millerl at wilma.wharton.upenn.edu" }, "date": "1992-04-06T21:42:01+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "BECKS at TAUNIVM.TAU.AC.IL (Sara Beck) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, I think that Wolfe's (or his characters) consistently have a\nweird attitude towards women. Women in Wolfe's books seem to be a\nsomewhat alien species. They are assumed to have their own agenda which\nis completely hidden from men, and to be more or less dangerous to men.\n\"There are Doors\" is exhibit A, of course. Also check out the references\nto sexual activity in the Torturer books (honesty compells me to admit I\nonly read the first 2); the atmosphere is like a soldier reporting on an\nencounter with the enemy. Yes he" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that Severian's misogyny (if indeed he was misogynous; he did give\nup his guild for a woman whom he didn't really know, and he risked his life\nto save a stranger woman from a stranger man, almost getting himself killed\nin the avern duel) is a part of his character, and not traceable to Wolfe.\nIf you read Wolfe's short stories, or the Soldier novels, you will find\nwhat I believe to be to be a deep understanding of female psychology (but\nthen, what do I know? I'm a bloke).\n\nSeverian was a character in over his head from the beginning, as is\nrevealed in the rest of the torturer books. That's why he was suspicious of\nall the women who tried to use him (after the first one), and that's why he\nwas also suspicious of the men who tried to use him.\n\nI haven't read There are Doors yet, so I can't address your rather cryptic\ncomment regarding that book.\n\nLoren Miller" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "K R Maxson", "address": "maxson at cerl.uiuc.edu" }, "date": "1992-04-07T00:41:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "BECKS at TAUNIVM.TAU.AC.IL (Sara Beck) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, I think that Wolfe's (or his characters) consistently have a\nweird attitude towards women. Women in Wolfe's books seem to be a\nsomewhat alien species. They are assumed to have their own agenda which\nis completely hidden from men, and to be more or less dangerous to men.\n\"There are Doors\" is exhibit A, of course. Also check out the references\nto sexual activity in the Torturer books (honesty compells me to admit I\nonly read the first 2); the atmosphere is like a soldier reporting on an\nencounter with the enemy. Yes he" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you are mistaking Wolfe's fascination with \"The Other\" for his\nperception of women. You are right that in _There Are Doors_ women are\nalien, but I don't think that is representative. Rather, in most of Gene\nWolfe's stories, there is a shadowy, elusive-but-familiar alien presence:\nthe abos of _Fifth Head_, the doctor in _The Death of Doctor Island_.\nWolfe writes a great deal about identity, and makes many ordinary things\nappear uncertain, illusory, deceptive; or even dangerous, malevolent." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Klaus Ole Kristiansen", "address": "klaus at diku.dk" }, "date": "1992-04-08T08:09:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have read these books by Wolfe: TheBook of the New Sun, The Urth (sp?) of\nthe New Sun, Endangered Species.\n\nWolfe is a great language wizard. I love the language of TBotNS. It gives\nthe fantasy world a unique, alien feel.\n\nThe stories in ES are very different (from each other). They are not all to\nmy liking, but they are all well written. Three are really great stories.\nThose three are also very, very different.\n\nKlaus O K\n\nPS. I bought ES because someone said on the net that it contains 3 really\ngreat stories. I agree, but I wonder if we agree on which they are. For me\nit's War beneath the Tree, When I Was Ming the Merciless, and In the House\nof Gingerbread." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dieter Britz", "address": "britz at kemi.aau.dk" }, "date": "1992-04-14T06:51:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To me, Gene Wolfe is one of those writers (among them Ursula Le Guin and\nAnthony Burgess), whom I read in large part because of their marvelous\nlanguage. With other writers, contents are the thing; content is certainly\nnot lacking with Wolfe, but his dignified and thought-provoking phrasing\nis, for me, unbeaten by other sf writers. I am baffled at the diversity of\nopinions about Gene Wolfe, on this net.\n Another thing he is good at, and obviously has his heart in, is his\nportrayal of children. This comes across strongly in the collection \"Island\nof Dr. Death and Other Stories and Other Stories\", especially in the one\nabout the blind boy (I forget the title). There is a short episode in one\nof the Torturer books, again with a smallish boy, lovingly written. Wolfe\nthen does kill him, but instantly and presumably painlessly.\n One of the qualities that \"make\" some sf is a sense of mystery; I read all\nthose computer-comes-alive stories of Van Vogt as a boy, and although I\nnever quite understood what was going on, I had this fascinating sense of\nmystery, and was sure there was a lot more to know, if only I could find\nout. Wolfe has this in just about every sentence. He is one of the great\nwriters of the present, and I wait for his next book.\n\nDieter Britz\nbritz at kemi.aau.dk" } ] } ] }