{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/sflovers/98", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "sflovers", "thread": { "id": 98, "subject": "Wolfe, \"Book of the New Sun\"", "messages": 12, "voices": 8, "first": "1992-08-09T14:46:16+00:00", "last": "1992-08-12T11:41:39+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Ben_Ami", "address": "davidba at carmel.technion.ac.il" }, "date": "1992-08-09T14:46:16+00:00", "subject": "Wolfe, \"Book of the New Sun\"", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've just finished reading Gene Wolfe's \"Shadow of the Torturer\". The book\nseemed very intriguing and interesting. The references to the past were\nvery amusing (the Hut in the Jungle chapter was great but a bit obscure).\n\nHowever, the \"distant future in Urth\" doesn't seem very futuristic if there\nweren't the few mentions of fliers and other planets. it seems like a\nMedieval world with fancy Guild system.\n\nI failed to understand the role of many chapters (especially the very long\nand tiresome journey with Agia around the city. The part with the traveling\nactors was very strange too.\n\nI guess it will be explained in the next books but still ...\n\nWhat is the \"New Sun\", why is Earth called Urth (is it Earth?)?\n\nThanks for any info.\n\nDavid Ben-Ami\ns2780369 at Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il\ndavidba at Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il\ndavidba at Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Donald Lindsay", "address": "lindsay+ at cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "1992-08-10T04:55:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe, \"Book of the New Sun\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "davidba at carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, the \"distant future in Urth\" doesn't seem very futuristic if\nthere weren't the few mentions of fliers and other planets. it seems like\na Medieval world with fancy Guild system.\n\nI guess it will be explained in the next books but still ... What is\nthe \"New Sun\", why is Earth called Urth (is it Earth?)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An important point is that it isn't a series: it's one multivolume book\nplus a sequel. Also, the SF book club put out \"The Castle Of The Otter\", a\ncollection of essays by Wolfe that explains a few things.\n\nBig secret: watch for time travel. Specifically, keep your eyes out for\ncause-and-effect reversals: the plot becomes much tighter if you notice\nthem. Wolfe doesn't hit you over the head with the clues, but you can\ndeduce many things - for instance, the hero's parentage.\n\nThe language: all words *are used correctly* if your idea of \"correct\"\nallows obsolete words and obsolete usages. There are no made-up words.\nPeriod.\n\nAs for high tech - the Urth has been through many cycles of high and low\ntech. The destriers, for example, were created by DNA engineering, and\nsurvived the low-tech times since they don't need tech to reproduce. The\nbasic tech idea is homage to Jack Vance: that the society has artifacts\nit does not know the history of, and that the occasional person does have\naccess to history.\n\nDon C. Lindsay\nCarnegie Mellon Computer Science" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris Waters", "address": "xtifr at netcom.com" }, "date": "1992-08-10T08:59:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe, \"Book of the New Sun\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "lindsay+ at cs.cmu.edu (Donald Lindsay) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The language: all words *are used correctly* if your idea of \"correct\"\nallows obsolete words and obsolete usages. There are no made-up words.\nPeriod." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Really? I have been unable to find any reference to the (marvelous) word\n``logophage'', which appears somewhere in _Shadow_. The meaning should be\nobvious to anyone who understands Greek roots, of course, but charming as\nthis coinage is, I find it difficult (though not impossible) to believe\nthat it is not original with Wolfe.\n\nMy impression was that there *were* made-up words, but that all such words\n(as above) were derived from common Greek or Latin roots, and presented in\na way that made their meaning obvious from context. I seem to remember\n(though it's been several years) that there were quite a few words which I\ncould not find even in the OED. However, I always found these words easy\nto understand - the obscure words that *did* give me trouble invariably\n*were* in the dictionary.\n\nChris Waters" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Aaron Humphrey", "address": "aaron at space.ualberta.ca" }, "date": "1992-08-10T17:01:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe, \"Book of the New Sun\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The language: all words *are used correctly* if your idea of \"correct\"\nallows obsolete words and obsolete usages. There are no made-up words.\nPeriod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Really? I have been unable to find any reference to the (marvelous) word\n``logophage'', which appears somewhere in _Shadow_. The meaning should be\nobvious to anyone who understands Greek roots, of course, but charming as\nthis coinage is, I find it difficult (though not impossible) to believe\nthat it is not original with Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had assumed in Duncan's \"Man of His Word\" books that he had made up the\nword anthropophage, until I encountered it in some other context as\nreferring to a childhood bogeyman. So don't be so sure..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My impression was that there *were* made-up words, but that all such words\n(as above) were derived from common Greek or Latin roots, and presented in\na way that made their meaning obvious from context. I seem to remember\n(though it's been several years) that there were quite a few words which I\ncould not find even in the OED. However, I always found these words easy\nto understand - the obscure words that *did* give me trouble invariably\n*were* in the dictionary." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The one word in the New Sun books (disclaimer:I've only read the first two)\nthat gave me trouble was athame, which I'd also encountered in the game\nnethack and never found in any dictionary. (I didn't try the OED,\nhowever.) I found out from someone else that it's a magician's silvered\ndagger...\n\nAaron V. Humphrey\nCanadian Network For Space Research\nEdmonton, Alberta, Canada" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Donald Lindsay", "address": "lindsay+ at cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "1992-08-11T03:51:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe, \"Book of the New Sun\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "xtifr at netcom.com (Chris Waters) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The language: all words *are used correctly* if your idea of \"correct\"\nallows obsolete words and obsolete usages. There are no made-up words.\nPeriod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My impression was that there *were* made-up words, but that all such words\n(as above) were derived from common Greek or Latin roots, and presented in\na way that made their meaning obvious from context." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe has stated that \"all the words are real\" and that \"everything is just\nwhat it says it is\". Loyal To The Group Of Seventeen is the only person not\ngiven a human name. There is, for example, a Dorcas in \"The Great Muppet\nCaper\" [the wife of John Cleese's character]. The monsters are named after\nmonsters, although Wolfe admits that Borges may have made up the historical\nreference that Wolfe used for \"Baldanders\". The Heirodules have the names\nof minor Roman gods. Ascians are people without shadows [their enemies\ncalling them that on the assumption that they are from the equatorial\nzone].\n\nUrth is the eldest of the Norns, who represents the past.\n\nDon C. Lindsay\nCarnegie Mellon Computer Science" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Steve Simmons", "address": "scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us" }, "date": "1992-08-11T15:36:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe, \"Book of the New Sun\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The language: all words *are used correctly* if your idea of \"correct\"\nallows obsolete words and obsolete usages. There are no made-up words.\nPeriod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Really? I have been unable to find any reference to the (marvelous) word\n``logophage'', which appears somewhere in _Shadow_. The meaning should be\nobvious to anyone who understands Greek roots, of course, but charming as\nthis coinage is, I find it difficult (though not impossible) to believe\nthat it is not original with Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A small distinction - Wolfe in an interview said that he did not make up\nany of the words. This is quite different from claiming they're all `real'\nwords. I believe that a number of nouns and names are taken from\nreasonably well-known works by other authors. *Those* authors may well\nhave made them up. \"Logophage\" does not appear in the slightly-\nout-of-date copy of the OED I have access to, but I seem to remember it\nfrom Fritz Leiber's \"The Pale Brown Thing.\"\n\nA trip through the OED looking up Wolfe words and names is always\ninteresting and often rewarding. For, example, take the 3-legged dog\n\"Triskele.\" No surprise that its primary meaning is a 3-legged brazier.\nBut about fourth down in the list (thank you, OED) is \"symbol of the Sun.\"\nFascinating foreshadowing when you consider Severian may have raised him\nfrom the dead." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Firth", "address": "firth at sei.cmu.edu" }, "date": "1992-08-11T15:46:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe, \"Book of the New Sun\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "lindsay+ at cs.cmu.edu (Donald Lindsay) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Urth is the eldest of the Norns, who represents the past." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, that's a fairly late mistake by the Icelandic commentators. In\nmedieval times, the Norns were supposed to be three in number: Werd,\nWerdanda and Skuld. The last two names can (at a stretch) connote the\npresent and the future, but the association of Werd with the past is a\nscholarly deduction with no etymological or historical support.\n\nOriginally, Werd was the sole Norn; she later became three in imitation of\nthe classical Parcae.\n\nOn the meaning - the spelling varies, but the closest to the original form\nof the name is Old Norse 'urdr', Icelandic 'urd', Old English 'wyrd',\nmodern 'weird'. The root meaning, therefore, is \"fate\". Wolfe's spelling\n(as so often with his recondite words) is eccentric; it seems to be based\non the analogy 'Erd' => 'Earth' :: 'Urd' => 'Urth'. I find that\nimplausible.\n\nRobert Firth" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Steve Simmons", "address": "scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us" }, "date": "1992-08-11T15:48:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe, \"Book of the New Sun\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "lindsay+ at cs.cmu.edu (Donald Lindsay) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "davidba at carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I guess it will be explained in the next books but still ... What is\nthe \"New Sun\", why is Earth called Urth (is it Earth?)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An important point is that it isn't a series: it's one multivolume book\nplus a sequel. Also, the SF book club put out \"The Castle Of The Otter\", a\ncollection of essays by Wolfe that explains a few things." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Getting it all out:\n\nOriginally there were four volumes which comprised \"The Book Of The New\nSun\":\n\n The Shadow of the Torturer\n The Claw of the Conciliator\n The Sword of the Lictor\n The Citadel of the Autarch\n\nThese were followed by the essay collection \"The Castle of the Otter.\"\nIts title came from an error in LOCUS where they got the title of the last\nbook wrong. Later, there was a sequel of sorts called \"The Urth of the New\nSun.\"\n\n\"Castle\" was published in only two editions I know of. Zeisling Brothers\npublished a good quality limited first edition of 520 copies of which 100\nwere signed (I have one, signed, so phhhttt! :-)) Later it was sold to the\nSF Book club in one of their typical quality printings.\n\n\"Castle\" lists slightly different titles, not giving the \"The\" for \"Sword\"\nor \"Citadel\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Steve Simmons", "address": "scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us" }, "date": "1992-08-11T15:52:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe, \"Book of the New Sun\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "lindsay+ at cs.cmu.edu (Donald Lindsay) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The language: all words *are used correctly* if your idea of \"correct\"\nallows obsolete words and obsolete usages. There are no made-up words.\nPeriod." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One cautionary note - when the characters translate a phrase or name\nfor you, do *not* take their words for it. My latin is extremely\nrusty, but I spotted several cases where there were distinct and\nmeaningful differences.\n\nOne that has always stuck in my head is \"Terminus Est.\" Severian is told\n(and believes) that it means \"the dividing line\", presumably between life\nand death (or at least, head and shoulders). A more accurate translation\nwould be \"this is the end.\" A small but distinct difference." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bill Garrett", "address": "garrett at cs.rochester.edu" }, "date": "1992-08-11T19:24:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe, \"Book of the New Sun\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Castle of the Otter will be reprinted along with Gene Wolfe's Book of Days,\nand various uncollected non-fiction in the omnibus \"Castle of Days\" due out\nfrom TOR around Christmas.\n\nBill Garrett\nUniversity of Rochester" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "P W Stephenson", "address": "pws at castle.ed.ac.uk" }, "date": "1992-08-12T09:23:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe, \"Book of the New Sun\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "lindsay+ at cs.cmu.edu (Donald Lindsay) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Borges may have made up the historical reference that Wolfe used for\n\"Baldanders\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I seem to discover something new about this book every day (and it's half a\ndozen years since I first read it). The reference to Borges brought back\nsomething I've been wondering about for a long time: namely that all the\naction takes place in the southern hemisphere (unless Wolfe intends that it\nshould get colder towards the equator, which might fit in with the theme of\nparadox; I can't remember how strong the evidence is.) I have assumed,\ndangerously, that the Commonwealth is (some major part of) South America;\nperhaps this is just because the Ascians, to the north, made me think of\nASCII, which made me think of... (etc.). Anyway, could this (purported)\nsetting be an homage to the type of fiction deriving from Borges? Just\nwondered.\n\nOh yes... while I'm on the subject, the only direct quotation I've ever\nseen (there is reference after reference after reference, of course) from\nanother work is from Marlowe's Faustus (roughly, ``Hell hath no limits, nor\nis circumscribed...''; it occurs just before the meeting with the undine, I\nthink.) Are there others? Does the singling out of this example mean\nsomething? (Of course it does, unlike `singling' which looks weird. I'm\nstarting to blabber. I liked `an homage', though.)\n\nPeter Stephenson\nDept. of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics\nUniversity of liverpool, U.K.\n+44 51 794 3784 or 3791\npws at s-a.amtp.liv.ac.uk\nPWS at UKACRL.BITNET" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Steve Simmons", "address": "scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us" }, "date": "1992-08-12T11:41:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: Wolfe, \"Book of the New Sun\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Urth is the eldest of the Norns, who represents the past." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, that's a fairly late mistake by the Icelandic commentators." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it's the definition used by Wolfe. Or so he says in \"Castle of the\nOtter.\"" } ] } ] }