Subject: Wolfe, "Book of the New Sun"

From: David Ben_Ami <davidba at carmel.technion.ac.il>
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1992 14:46:16 +0000

I've just finished reading Gene Wolfe's "Shadow of the Torturer".  The book
seemed very intriguing and interesting. The references to the past were
very amusing (the Hut in the Jungle chapter was great but a bit obscure).

However, the "distant future in Urth" doesn't seem very futuristic if there
weren't the few mentions of fliers and other planets. it seems like a
Medieval world with fancy Guild system.

I failed to understand the role of many chapters (especially the very long
and tiresome journey with Agia around the city. The part with the traveling
actors was very strange too.

I guess it will be explained in the next books but still ...

What is the "New Sun", why is Earth called Urth (is it Earth?)?

Thanks for any info.

David Ben-Ami
s2780369 at Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il
davidba at Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il
davidba at Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il

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From: Donald Lindsay <lindsay+ at cs.cmu.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1992 04:55:30 +0000

davidba at carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>However, the "distant future in Urth" doesn't seem very futuristic if
>there weren't the few mentions of fliers and other planets. it seems like
>a Medieval world with fancy Guild system.
>
>I guess it will be explained in the next books but still ...  What is
>the "New Sun", why is Earth called Urth (is it Earth?)?

An important point is that it isn't a series: it's one multivolume book
plus a sequel. Also, the SF book club put out "The Castle Of The Otter", a
collection of essays by Wolfe that explains a few things.

Big secret: watch for time travel. Specifically, keep your eyes out for
cause-and-effect reversals: the plot becomes much tighter if you notice
them. Wolfe doesn't hit you over the head with the clues, but you can
deduce many things - for instance, the hero's parentage.

The language: all words *are used correctly* if your idea of "correct"
allows obsolete words and obsolete usages. There are no made-up words.
Period.

As for high tech - the Urth has been through many cycles of high and low
tech. The destriers, for example, were created by DNA engineering, and
survived the low-tech times since they don't need tech to reproduce. The
basic tech idea is homage to Jack Vance: that the society has artifacts
it does not know the history of, and that the occasional person does have
access to history.

Don C. Lindsay
Carnegie Mellon Computer Science

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From: Chris Waters <xtifr at netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1992 08:59:49 +0000

>allows obsolete words and obsolete usages. There are no made-up words.

Really?  I have been unable to find any reference to the (marvelous) word
``logophage'', which appears somewhere in _Shadow_.  The meaning should be
obvious to anyone who understands Greek roots, of course, but charming as
this coinage is, I find it difficult (though not impossible) to believe
that it is not original with Wolfe.

My impression was that there *were* made-up words, but that all such words
(as above) were derived from common Greek or Latin roots, and presented in
a way that made their meaning obvious from context.  I seem to remember
(though it's been several years) that there were quite a few words which I
could not find even in the OED.  However, I always found these words easy
to understand - the obscure words that *did* give me trouble invariably
*were* in the dictionary.

Chris Waters

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From: Aaron Humphrey <aaron at space.ualberta.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1992 17:01:28 +0000

>that it is not original with Wolfe.

I had assumed in Duncan's "Man of His Word" books that he had made up the
word anthropophage, until I encountered it in some other context as
referring to a childhood bogeyman.  So don't be so sure...

>*were* in the dictionary.

The one word in the New Sun books (disclaimer:I've only read the first two)
that gave me trouble was athame, which I'd also encountered in the game
nethack and never found in any dictionary.  (I didn't try the OED,
however.)  I found out from someone else that it's a magician's silvered
dagger...

Aaron V. Humphrey
Canadian Network For Space Research
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

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From: Donald Lindsay <lindsay+ at cs.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1992 03:51:02 +0000

xtifr at netcom.com (Chris Waters) writes:
>a way that made their meaning obvious from context.

Wolfe has stated that "all the words are real" and that "everything is just
what it says it is". Loyal To The Group Of Seventeen is the only person not
given a human name. There is, for example, a Dorcas in "The Great Muppet
Caper" [the wife of John Cleese's character].  The monsters are named after
monsters, although Wolfe admits that Borges may have made up the historical
reference that Wolfe used for "Baldanders". The Heirodules have the names
of minor Roman gods.  Ascians are people without shadows [their enemies
calling them that on the assumption that they are from the equatorial
zone].

Urth is the eldest of the Norns, who represents the past.

Don C. Lindsay

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From: Steve Simmons <scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1992 15:36:50 +0000

>that it is not original with Wolfe.

A small distinction - Wolfe in an interview said that he did not make up
any of the words.  This is quite different from claiming they're all `real'
words.  I believe that a number of nouns and names are taken from
reasonably well-known works by other authors.  *Those* authors may well
have made them up.  "Logophage" does not appear in the slightly-
out-of-date copy of the OED I have access to, but I seem to remember it
from Fritz Leiber's "The Pale Brown Thing."

A trip through the OED looking up Wolfe words and names is always
interesting and often rewarding.  For, example, take the 3-legged dog
"Triskele."  No surprise that its primary meaning is a 3-legged brazier.
But about fourth down in the list (thank you, OED) is "symbol of the Sun."
Fascinating foreshadowing when you consider Severian may have raised him
from the dead.

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From: Robert Firth <firth at sei.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1992 15:46:24 +0000

>Urth is the eldest of the Norns, who represents the past.

No, that's a fairly late mistake by the Icelandic commentators.  In
medieval times, the Norns were supposed to be three in number: Werd,
Werdanda and Skuld.  The last two names can (at a stretch) connote the
present and the future, but the association of Werd with the past is a
scholarly deduction with no etymological or historical support.

Originally, Werd was the sole Norn; she later became three in imitation of
the classical Parcae.

On the meaning - the spelling varies, but the closest to the original form
of the name is Old Norse 'urdr', Icelandic 'urd', Old English 'wyrd',
modern 'weird'.  The root meaning, therefore, is "fate".  Wolfe's spelling
(as so often with his recondite words) is eccentric; it seems to be based
on the analogy 'Erd' => 'Earth' :: 'Urd' => 'Urth'.  I find that
implausible.

Robert Firth

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From: Steve Simmons <scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1992 15:48:36 +0000

>collection of essays by Wolfe that explains a few things.

Getting it all out:

Originally there were four volumes which comprised "The Book Of The New
Sun":

   The Shadow of the Torturer
   The Claw of the Conciliator
   The Sword of the Lictor
   The Citadel of the Autarch

These were followed by the essay collection "The Castle of the Otter."
Its title came from an error in LOCUS where they got the title of the last
book wrong.  Later, there was a sequel of sorts called "The Urth of the New
Sun."

"Castle" was published in only two editions I know of.  Zeisling Brothers
published a good quality limited first edition of 520 copies of which 100
were signed (I have one, signed, so phhhttt! :-)) Later it was sold to the
SF Book club in one of their typical quality printings.

"Castle" lists slightly different titles, not giving the "The" for "Sword"
or "Citadel".

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From: Steve Simmons <scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1992 15:52:09 +0000

>allows obsolete words and obsolete usages. There are no made-up words.

One cautionary note - when the characters translate a phrase or name
for you, do *not* take their words for it.  My latin is extremely
rusty, but I spotted several cases where there were distinct and
meaningful differences.

One that has always stuck in my head is "Terminus Est."  Severian is told
(and believes) that it means "the dividing line", presumably between life
and death (or at least, head and shoulders).  A more accurate translation
would be "this is the end."  A small but distinct difference.

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From: Bill Garrett <garrett at cs.rochester.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1992 19:24:35 +0000

Castle of the Otter will be reprinted along with Gene Wolfe's Book of Days,
and various uncollected non-fiction in the omnibus "Castle of Days" due out
from TOR around Christmas.

Bill Garrett
University of Rochester

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From: P W Stephenson <pws at castle.ed.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 09:23:30 +0000

lindsay+ at cs.cmu.edu (Donald Lindsay) writes:
>Borges may have made up the historical reference that Wolfe used for
>"Baldanders".

I seem to discover something new about this book every day (and it's half a
dozen years since I first read it).  The reference to Borges brought back
something I've been wondering about for a long time: namely that all the
action takes place in the southern hemisphere (unless Wolfe intends that it
should get colder towards the equator, which might fit in with the theme of
paradox; I can't remember how strong the evidence is.)  I have assumed,
dangerously, that the Commonwealth is (some major part of) South America;
perhaps this is just because the Ascians, to the north, made me think of
ASCII, which made me think of... (etc.).  Anyway, could this (purported)
setting be an homage to the type of fiction deriving from Borges?  Just
wondered.

Oh yes... while I'm on the subject, the only direct quotation I've ever
seen (there is reference after reference after reference, of course) from
another work is from Marlowe's Faustus (roughly, ``Hell hath no limits, nor
is circumscribed...''; it occurs just before the meeting with the undine, I
think.)  Are there others?  Does the singling out of this example mean
something?  (Of course it does, unlike `singling' which looks weird.  I'm
starting to blabber.  I liked `an homage', though.)

Peter Stephenson
Dept. of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics
University of liverpool, U.K.
+44 51 794 3784 or 3791
pws at s-a.amtp.liv.ac.uk
PWS at UKACRL.BITNET

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From: Steve Simmons <scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us>
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 11:41:39 +0000

>No, that's a fairly late mistake by the Icelandic commentators.

But it's the definition used by Wolfe.  Or so he says in "Castle of the
Otter."