{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1012", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1012, "subject": "David as Maitre 2", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "1998-07-19T23:39:50+00:00", "last": "1998-07-20T22:10:05+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mary whalen", "address": "marewhalen at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1998-07-19T23:39:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) David as Maitre 2", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\nI think that in _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_ the junior officer who\nreviews VRT's case is actually David. First, David is known to have\ngone to the capital after his father's death, presumably to follow his\nlove of political power. Plenty of time has passed since the murder\nand VRT's arrest for him to have attained such a position and to have\nheld it for a fairly significant amount of time. Also, he is called a\njunior officer and the other officer he meets is called a brother\nofficer. This is an allusion to the fact that David is younger than\nhis \"brother\" No. 5. The other person the j.o. is mentioned in this\nstory to be younger than is his slave, who is probably one of the\nclones or altered clones of Maitre. This seems to be plenty, in a\nWolfe book, to link him to David. More, he is only addressed as\nMaitre, just like his father was, continuing the chain of linkage. \nThe other officer also says that he always was a night owl, which is\nsimilar to the way that David and No. 5 stayed up when they were young\nin FHC. Also, when he hits the slave, it is like a reversal of when\nNo. 5 accidently stabbed him when he was fighting the other clone of\nMaitre with four arms.\n\nprion" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at coredcs.com" }, "date": "1998-07-20T22:10:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: David as Maitre 2", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sean/prion:\n\nIt's kinda neat--your idea of David being Maitre #2, the junior officer who\nreviews VRT's case. I'm not sure I buy it--David's a wee bit on the spoiled\nside if you ask me, and does not seem so much interested in power as he\ndoes glitter and celebrity and the spoils of being rich. Witness, how in\nregards to killing Maitre and locating his treasure trove, \"David talked\nabout hunting in the grand style, and the political power money could buy.\"\nIt also seems odd that he wouldn't remark upon or notice that the male\nslave looks exactly like his father and brother. (Unless subconsciously\nthis is why he helps him escape the silk-mite factory...). Nor does he show\nany unusual reaction when he reads in the interviews how VRT deduces Maitre\nhas been murdered. Also, if VRT is initially arrested on the suspicion of\nhaving murdered Maitre, is it likely even a corrupt French military\ntribunal would allow Maitre's own son to determine the alleged murderer's\nfate (especially since Marsch is thought to be Terran) and never have David\nmention the irony once? I'm also not sure the time element would allow\nDavid to rise in the ranks this fast, especially if he's bedridden with a\nmajor leg injury at the time of Maitre's murder.\n\nBut in the interests of open-mindedness, I also point out David plays a\nmilitary man--a captain of the chasseurs--in the summer play he, # 5,\nPhaedria et al stage. And he does have sex with another possible abo\n(Cassilla), the same way his father did if Celestine Etienne indeed is an\nabo. So who knows? I've built theories on less.\n\nRobert Borski" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mary whalen", "address": "marewhalen at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1998-07-20T21:56:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: David as Maitre 2", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Sean Whalen (prion)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---Robert Borski wrote:\n\nSean/prion:\n\nIt's kinda neat--your idea of David being Maitre #2, the junior\nofficer who\nreviews VRT's case. I'm not sure I buy it--David's a wee bit on the\nspoiled\nside if you ask me, and does not seem so much interested in power as\nhe\ndoes glitter and celebrity and the spoils of being rich. Witness,\nhow in\nregards to killing Maitre and locating his treasure trove, \"David\ntalked\nabout hunting in the grand style, and the political power money\ncould buy.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but why did David go to the capital? In the capital there would\nbe the possibility of a government position, such as an intelligence\nofficer. He has the education and intellect for such a position.\n\nHe is dreaming about how to spend the money he would get if Maitre\ndied, but since he receives none when this occurs, he has to find\nanother way to gain money, through the political power he dreams of\nrather than the other way around (I also remember one other point in\nthe book when he's remarked to want political power or influence or\nsomething)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It also seems odd that he wouldn't remark upon or notice that the male\nslave looks exactly like his father and brother. (Unless\nsubconsciously\nthis is why he helps him escape the silk-mite factory...). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It isn't certain that he looks exactly like them, he may not be a\nsimple clone. He could be Maitre's natural child or the child of one\nof an earlier version's clone, or any number of things. He may also\njust be older and more worn, sickly, thin, etc.\n\nRemember also that David and No. 5 don't notice that Mr. Million has\nthe same face as Maitre but at a different. The slave No. 5 meets at\nthe market also doesn't notice that No. 5 resembles him so. Remember\nthat everyone on Ste. Croix looks very similar, the probable result of\nthe Gene Wolfe line's genealogical influence. There's no reason for\nhim to really notice this or remark on it, and if he did it would be\nwhen he first met him, which scene is not seen in the book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nor does he show\nany unusual reaction when he reads in the interviews how VRT deduces\nMaitre\nhas been murdered. Also, if VRT is initially arrested on the\nsuspicion of\nhaving murdered Maitre, is it likely even a corrupt French military\ntribunal would allow Maitre's own son to determine the alleged\nmurderer's\nfate (especially since Marsch is thought to be Terran) and never\nhave David\nmention the irony once?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We never see what he is thinking until the final part at all, so this\nreaction would not be mentioned. There's also no reason for him to\nreact. He has already known for a long time at this point that his\nfather was murdered, and that No. 5 did it. Seeing that someone else\ncharged with the same crime and arrested whom he knows deduces this\nshouldn't cause any startling. He also shows no outward reaction to\nmuch stranger or shocking parts of his reading either, even when he\nbecomes sure that VRT replaced Marsch and may be an abo.\n\nDavid doesn't mention the irony or anything else as he reads it. We\nhardly learn any of the thoughts that he has during the novella at\nall. It's not significant that this would be excluded when everything\nelse is as well.\n\nRemember, too, that the authorities could find no evidence that David\nwas indeed Maitre's son and thus give him no inheritance. As far as\nthe government is concerned in their records, he has no connection to\nhim at all. The officer who sends him the case may not even know that\nDavid was raised by Maitre. This matters less now that they know that\nhe didn't murder Maitre, and that he isn't really from Earth at all\n(they apparently figure that much out, at least, before sending the\ncase)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm also not sure the time element would allow\nDavid to rise in the ranks this fast, especially if he's bedridden\nwith a\nmajor leg injury at the time of Maitre's murder." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It wouldn't take very much time at all for the leg to heal after the\ntime of the murder. He appears to leave for the capital almost\nimmediately after it is found that Maitre left no money that Jeannine\ncould find. VRT is imprisoned for a significant amount of time at the\ntime of his last writing (that we see). It's unknown how much time\npassed after that and when the case was photocopied and assembled. \nWhen it was finished, it was a year before the junior officr receives\nit (who knows what has been done with it in the meantime). This gives\nhim at least around three years to obtain this position, and he is\nonly a junior officer in an uncooled building who has to review long\nassignments overnight just to get ahead. David appears smart enough\nand educated enough to get this job, especially since when he first\narrived he had at least some money. Who knows what connections Aunt\nJeannine told him about that he could use to get to this position? \nMany people visit brothels.\n\nprion" } ] } ] }