{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1014", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1014, "subject": "Islands in Commonwealth", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1998-07-20T03:35:52+00:00", "last": "1998-07-20T09:23:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Westlake", "address": "peter at harlequin.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-07-20T09:23:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 13:57 1998-07-05 -0500, Adam wrote:\n\nprion wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A previous letter to the list (I'm sorry but I don't remember when)\nasked how the Commonwealth could be in a South America geographically\nsimilar to the current continent when the Commonwealth is described as\nconsisting of an archipelago of islands to the south. The answer is\nthat SA does have a long chain of many islands in the south, but it\nclosely follows the close, so the questioner probably wouldn't\nremember them or have noticed them just by casually looking in the\nfirst place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was the original questioner, and I was aware of the islands in the\nsouth of SA. My question was based on my belief that Severian was\nasserting that the Commonwealth consisted entirely of islands. But\nreexamining the quote, it now seems clear to me that the relevant\nphrase--\"a chain of islands like our south\"--refers to the southern-\nmost portion of the Commonwealth, and not to the Commonwealth as a\nwhole, as I had originally thought. So there's no problem there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hasn't Wolfe said that Gyoll is the Orinoco? As usual, I can't find\nthe place where I read this. But I looked at an atlas yesterday and\nwas quite surprised. Because if it's true, then the islands in the\nSouth - the direction away from the Equator - would be the West Indies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Last year Scott Dalrymple wrote:\nAnd, regarding Vodalus's assertion that Urth has flipped on her axis, would\nthat matter? To someone like Severian, wouldn't the world appear to be the\nsame? He'd still be traveling toward Urth's belly to reach the tropical\nregions. After all, North and South, while tied to poles, are somewhat\narbitrary constructs, aren't they? Why couldn't we depict the world with\nthe South Pole on \"top\"? Maybe we've got the whole universe upside-down." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(I quote Scott because I can't find the original quote ;-)\n\nIt makes sense for the West Indies to be rather colder than nowadays,\nwhile the islands along the coast of South America would surely be\nunder the ice. The West Indies are more of an archipelago, too.\nI think this also explains why the rivers all flow West, when we\nwould expect them to flow East.\n\nIn _Citadel_ Severian is walking North with the sea to the West and\nthe Sun rising on his right. The Sun still rises in the East, I think\n(doesn't Typhon's statue face West, away from the sunrise?) so this\nreally would be the world having turned over, not a magnetic reversal.\nMind you, this is about the one place in the whole book where left\nor right are mentioned explicitly. I would almost rather believe the\nSun rose in the West than trust Severian to know which way was right,\ngiven his total inability to follow directions.\n\nSBear." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mary whalen", "address": "marewhalen at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1998-07-20T03:35:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Sean Whalen (prion)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---Peter Westlake wrote:\n\nAt 13:57 1998-07-05 -0500, Adam wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "prion wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A previous letter to the list (I'm sorry but I don't remember when)\nasked how the Commonwealth could be in a South America\ngeographically\nsimilar to the current continent when the Commonwealth is\ndescribed as\nconsisting of an archipelago of islands to the south. The answer\nis\nthat SA does have a long chain of many islands in the south, but it\nclosely follows the close, so the questioner probably wouldn't\nremember them or have noticed them just by casually looking in the\nfirst place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was the original questioner, and I was aware of the islands in the\nsouth of SA. My question was based on my belief that Severian was\nasserting that the Commonwealth consisted entirely of islands. But\nreexamining the quote, it now seems clear to me that the relevant\nphrase--\"a chain of islands like our south\"--refers to the southern-\nmost portion of the Commonwealth, and not to the Commonwealth as a\nwhole, as I had originally thought. So there's no problem there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hasn't Wolfe said that Gyoll is the Orinoco? As usual, I can't find\nthe place where I read this. But I looked at an atlas yesterday and\nwas quite surprised. Because if it's true, then the islands in the\nSouth - the direction away from the Equator - would be the West\nIndies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wheww. How's that for a bundle of citations?\n\nI don't remember Wolfe ever saying this, and it doesn't appear\npossible (see below)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Last year Scott Dalrymple wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And, regarding Vodalus's assertion that Urth has flipped on her\naxis, would\nthat matter? To someone like Severian, wouldn't the world appear\nto be the\nsame? He'd still be traveling toward Urth's belly to reach the\ntropical\nregions. After all, North and South, while tied to poles, are\nsomewhat\narbitrary constructs, aren't they? Why couldn't we depict the\nworld with\nthe South Pole on \"top\"? Maybe we've got the whole universe\nupside-down." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Vodalus was talking about the magnetic axis flipping, which has\nhappened often before on Earth.\n\nNorth and south may seem arbitrary, but east and west definitely\naren't. The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Assuming a\nhuman has a head in one direction and feet in the other, it is\npossible to determine which side is left and which right, and they are\ndifferent. But anyway, with a person's left to the west and right to\nthe east, he would be facing north, as happens to Severian (see below)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(I quote Scott because I can't find the original quote ;-)\n\nIt makes sense for the West Indies to be rather colder than nowadays,\nwhile the islands along the coast of South America would surely be\nunder the ice. The West Indies are more of an archipelago, too.\nI think this also explains why the rivers all flow West, when we\nwould expect them to flow East.\n\nIn _Citadel_ Severian is walking North with the sea to the West and\nthe Sun rising on his right. The Sun still rises in the East, I think\n(doesn't Typhon's statue face West, away from the sunrise?) so this\nreally would be the world having turned over, not a magnetic reversal.\nMind you, this is about the one place in the whole book where left\nor right are mentioned explicitly. I would almost rather believe the\nSun rose in the West than trust Severian to know which way was right,\ngiven his total inability to follow directions.\n\nSBear." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I understand it, the entire geography is like this: the sea level\nis lower because the colder temperature has frozen more water into the\nice caps. There is thus more land. South America is in the general\narea it is now, with a similar distribution of continents. Nessus is\non the west coast, west of the \"Andes\" and perhaps on land that is\ncurrently underwater. The Gyoll flows from it's source in the Andes\nwest to it's mouth on the west coast. East of the Andes is the Amazon\njungle. North in North America is the country of the Ascians. West\nare the Xanthic lands (Asia).\n\nTo explain: in the book it says that to the south are the narrow\nlands and the southern archipelago. This could refer to either what\nis currently north or south, however, it also says that to the north\nis the waist of the world and north of that the Ascians. There is no\nisthmus to what we call the south. Therefore, the directions are the\nsame as we use today. The Ascians live in North America, the waist is\nthe Isthmus of Panama and environs. The narrow lands are the narrow\nsouthern part of South America. Also, the islands may not be the ones\nthere today, but lower ones revealed by the receded ocean. Severian\nalso says that the north is hotter, in some sections of the books.\n\nThe rivers flow west because he's west of the Andes. There's also\nmore land in that area because of the sea level.\n\nI've already discussed how Severian's northward journey helps confirm\nthis.\n\nprion" } ] } ] }