# unsuscribe *The Urth list — 1 messages, 1 voices, 20 Jul 1998* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Internet Megantic *20 Jul 1998, 09:53* unsuscribe > At 03:43 20-07-98 -0700, you wrote: > > -------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n006 -------------- > > 001 - adam louis stephanides 002 - adam louis stephanides 003 - Internet Megantic 004 - "Alex David Groce" 005 - "J. Schultz" 006 - m.driussi at genie.com - (urth) Questions Keep Questing > 007 - mary whalen 008 - mary whalen 009 - Peter Westlake 010 - mary whalen > URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.1 --------------- > > From: adam louis stephanides > Subject: Severian and the White Fountain > Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:15:42 -0500 (CDT) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > In-Reply-To: <199807142021.NAA29492 at lists1.best.com> > > > > On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 Christopher R. Culver wrote: >> Adam asked: >>> Why is it necessary for anybody to "bring the White Fountain" to Urth? Why >>> can't the Hierogrammates just send it?< >> This is, IMHO, rather simple. The Hierogrammates are theological beings who >> serve the Pancreator. As such, they judge the sentient beings of their area >> and decide whether those people are deserving of a miracle. > What I meant to ask was not "Why don't the Hierogrammates distributes > White Fountains to everybody who need one?" but "Having decided to give > Urth a White Fountain, why don't they simply send Severian back to Urth, > assuring him the White Fountain will be along shortly? Why go through > this routine of having Severian "become" the White Fountain as well, which > he then "guides" to Urth, or at least believes he does. >> Also: > >> >> Severian mentions on the Ship of Tzadkiel that the Autarch is by right the >> representative of Urth to the Hierodules, even though he rules a small >> portion >> of it. > True, but Severian's "trial" is not, as he origingally believes, to > determine his or Urth's moral fitness to receive the New Sun, but to > determine the likelihood of his successfully bringing the New Sun. So > it's not obvious why the New Sun needs to be brought by an ex officio > "representative of Urth." > > --Adam > > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.2 --------------- > > From: adam louis stephanides > Subject: Il (Peter) Principe > Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:35:59 -0500 (CDT) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > In-Reply-To: <199807140634.XAA22362 at lists1.best.com> > > > mantis, > > I was away for a few days, or I would have responded to your post earlier. > I have a few minor cavils, which I'll discuss elsewhere, but I found it > admirably clear and enlightening. > > Unfortunately, it only leaves me more baffled regarding _Urth_ as a whole. > In fact, it now seems to me that _Urth_ is at least as obscure as > _Castleview_. To start with, the Hierodules have been supporting the > "rickety" political structure of the Commonwealth for a thousand years or > more, apparently solely so that at the end of this time Severian, the > man destined to bring the New Sun, will be Autarch. This is too > reminiscent of _The Sirens of Titan_ for my taste. More to the point, it > makes even more urgent the questions I asked in an earlier post: why must > an Urthman bring the New Sun, why an Autarch, and why Severian? I'm not > as confident that the answers I gave are correct as I was then, but I > haven't seen any better answers. For that matter, I'm doubtful about the > whole punishment-and-redemption-of-Urth schema: if the "redemption" > involves wiping out 99.9% of Urth's population, one would think the > "punishment" could be dispensed with as superfluous. > > I'm also baffled by the course of events surrounding Severian's "trial." > Why is he led to think that his trial will be like his predecessor's? Is > it just so he will be a more humane ruler as Autarch? But then why isn't > he told the truth as soon as he leaves Urth? > > And what is the function of the battle royal between the sailors and the > aquastors? Were the Hierogrammates really willing, after all those years > of preparation, to risk the survival of their race on the outcome of that > battle? > > In short, your post made me realize that so far, the first half of _Urth_ > doesn't make sense for me. Any help you, or anyone else of course, can > give me would be most appreciated. (If this post seems querulous, it's a > reflection of my desperation.) > > --Adam > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.3 --------------- > > From: Internet Megantic > Subject: unsuscribe- Digest urth.v017.n005 > Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:32:19 -0400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > At 21:10 18-07-98 -0700, you wrote: >> -------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n005 -------------- >> >> 001 - "William H. Ansley" > 002 - "Robert Borski" > 003 - "Alice Turner" > 004 - Derek Bell > 005 - raster at highfiber.com (Cha - Re: Claudius >> >> URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works >> >> >> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.1 --------------- >> >> From: "William H. Ansley" >> Subject: Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Space >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:50:38 -0400 >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> In-Reply-To: <199807180216.TAA14355 at lists1.best.com> >>> One of the more puzzling names in THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS to be sourced >>> is the Country of Friends. It's cited by the abos as the possible homeport >>> of the star-faring Homo sapiens pangalacticus, who've traveled to Saint >>> Anne in the distant past, and mentioned in the same breath as Atlantis and >>> Gondwanaland. >>> >>> I'm now speculating it relates to the Aztecs. >>> >>> This is because Texas--where Gene Wolfe grew up--is derived from the Indian >>> word "texia," meaning "friends." And since Texas was once part of Mexico, >>> it's possible the Country of Friends generally refers to Aztecan >>> civilization. >> I like this too. >> >> I have a nagging idea that the phrase "the Country of Friends" occurs >> elsewhere in Wolfe and I have seen it recently in my rereading. If I find >> the reference, I will certainly post. >> >> William Ansley >> >> >> >> >> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.2 --------------- >> >> From: "Robert Borski" >> Subject: Sanderson's Abandonment >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:26:00 -0500 >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >> Earlier, in regards to my Continuing Westward post, Sean Whalen (aka prion) >> wrote: >> >> "This seems to fit, but how does it fit in that he originally thought >> that she stabbed Sanderson? He didn't just decide to leave him, he >> thought that he was dead." >> >> This may relate to some aspect of a Kipling short story (The Phantom >> Rickshaw?), but I'm not sure--it's been 30+ years since I read SOLDIERS >> THREE and the other collections. Or it may be simple irony. Paris, the >> Great Seducer, undone by his own lust (whereas the Paris of legend stakes a >> claim to the most beautiful woman in the world and precipitates a war). >> >> Of course, all of the Homeric correspondences are rather loosely clumped >> together--hence the notion of Greek Odysseus and Trojan Paris as >> shipmates--so the search for parallels my be intriniscally flawed to begin >> with, at least if we expect 100% fidelity with the Illiad/Odyssey. >> >> Also, what I forgot to mention in my Cherry Jubilee piece is that KGB agent >> Vera Oussenko, who, as you mention, is arrested, represents truth, which >> she is seeking, even though she gets it wrong (Vera = veritas), only in the >> inverted value system of CJ she's "punished"--not being allowed to >> disembark, she's spared the hell of Mars. >> >> Robert Borski >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.3 --------------- >> >> From: "Alice Turner" >> Subject: Re: Digest urth.v017.n004 >> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:16:27 -0400 >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> Don't know if this has been brought up before, but if Owen/Ouen is >>> considered to be the Welsh/Celtic equivalent of Eugene, doesn't that mean >>> Sev's father might also be called Gene? >> From the Oxford book of English Christian names: >> >> OWEN: a common Welsh name; in Middle English romances often spelled Owain, >> Owayne, Ywain. It has been supposed to be derived from Latin Eugenius...see >> Ewan. (Ouen) >> >> EWEN: this name, now confined to Scotland, was once common in England...It >> is probably the same as Irish and Gaelic Eoghan 'a youth,' which is frequent >> in Celtic legend and history. Eoghan is usually derived from Primitive >> Celtic Eugenius 'well-born,' from which is derived Old Welsh Euguein which >> later became Middle Welsh Ewein, Ywein, whence modern Welsh Owain, Owen. >> >> Bravo, scolex. Thank you. >> >> -alga- >> >> >> >> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.4 --------------- >> >> From: Derek Bell >> Subject: Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Space >> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:22:08 +0100 >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:50:38 EDT." >> <199807180352.UAA19972 at lists1.best.com> >> >> In message <199807180352.UAA19972 at lists1.best.com>, "William H. Ansley" writes: >>> I have a nagging idea that the phrase "the Country of Friends" occurs >>> elsewhere in Wolfe and I have seen it recently in my rereading. If I find >>> the reference, I will certainly post. >> I think it's in the short story _Feather Tigers_, IIRC. It >> occurs in the dialog between the main protagonist and the sky(space?) >> yacht. >> >> Derek >> >> >> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.5 --------------- >> >> From: raster at highfiber.com (Charles Dye) >> Subject: Re: Claudius >> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:36:57 -0600 (MDT) >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> CRCulver at aol.com writes: >>> Alex: >>> < Has there been any discussion on the list (sorry, I'm new and haven't had >>> time to exhaustively browse the archives) of similarities between >>> Severian and >>> Claudius, both the historical emperor and the charming narrator of the two >>> Robert Graves novels?> >>> The point that comes to mind first is that both Claudius and Severian plan to >>> write a manuscript they believe no one will read and get rid of it in a lead >>> coffer. >> The dead giveaway, for me anyhow, was the scene where Severian produces one >> of 'his' aes in the era of Typhon: >> >> He examined it, bit it, and gave it back to me. "Gold all right. >> Looks a trifle like you, 'cept he seems to have got himself cut up. >> Don't suppose you noticed." >> >> "No," I said. "I never thought of it." >> >> Hadelin nodded and pushed back his chair. "A man doesn't shave himself >> sidewise. See you in the morning, sieur, madame." >> >> Compare with a scene from "Claudius the God" chapter 6 : >> >> It pleased my vanity to have my head on the coins.... Portraits on >> coins, however, are always disappointing because they are executed in >> profile, and it comes as a shock, when one sees it in a portrait, that >> one really looks like that to people standing beside one. For one's >> full face, because of the familiarity that mirrors give it, a certain >> toleration and even affection is felt; but I must say that when I first >> saw the model that the mint-masters were striking for me I grew angry >> and asked whether it was intended to be a caricature. >> >> Robert Graves once did a translation of "The Lives of the Twelve Caesars" >> in which each Emperor's chapter was illustrated with the appropriate aureus. >> >> raster at highfiber.com >> >> >> >> --------------- END urth.v017.n005 --------------- >> >> >> *More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/ > /Serges > Internet Megantic > http://www.megantic.net/ > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.4 --------------- > > From: "Alex David Groce" > Subject: Eleanor Bold > Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:57:36 -0400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I've often wondered if the name "Eleanor Bold" in PEACE is simply a > coincidence, or is intended to mean something. I've seen Wolfe refer to > Trollope before, particularly in an essay or interview when he was discussing > the value to a writer of having a job other than writing (I think this is in > CASTLE OF DAYS). So, it seems reasonable to assume Wolfe's read BARCHESTER > TOWERS, and possibly all of the Barchester books, and it is an intentional > effect. But what exactly is it supposed to suggest? Any ideas? > > -- > "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." - John 8:32 > -- > Alex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu) > Senior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction) > '98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President > 608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366 > http://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.5 --------------- > > From: "J. Schultz" > Subject: Autarch > Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:42:38 -0400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > It takes me a while to get around to reading all my mail. This is in > response to the difference between Autarch and Monarch. As we have all > figured by now Autarch means one who rules themselves. This idea works into > one of the themes I see present in the first set of books (tBotNS). At each > step in Severian's development we see him cast off the power of one > authority after another. He breaks his ties from the authority of the > guild, the Archon and his post as Lictor, Typhon, etc. It all leads up to > the point where just before the Lake people attack the castle of Baldanders, > when Severian says (to paraphrase) I began to follow the Increate's > authority above all others. Severian has become his own man, as it were. > He decides for himself what is right and wrong, moral and evil, with a > personal relationship with God. Thus I feel that the title "Autarch" is > symbolic of this change and that the title has more thematic meaning, rather > than any real practical meaning in the way of legal proceedure. A rose is a > rose is a rose. Or, it doesn't really matter what you call him, the idea is > that he is the top dog and no one is higher, the one man who rules himself. > As we find out, however, the Autarch is the subject of the Hierodules and > other higher powers (at least in some sense of the word). We can't forget > that the message of tBotNS is basically spiritual and religious, whether we > like it or not. In my mind it is the redemption of a torturer who is lost > in an immoral and decaying world. > > As far as what would have happened had Appian let Severian enter Yesod, he > most likely would have failed having not learned the important lessons that > were to come. However, He would have EATEN Appian's brains AT THAT TIME. > Appian even says, "Gee, sorry I'm so shocked but I thought I had more time." > Which leads me to believe that Appian knows that Sev will take the throne > and he knows that to take the throne he (Appian) has to be dead. I would > balk too if my replacement walked in the door and said, "Well, I'm ready, > take me to the garden and get your brains ready." While Sev doesn't say > this it is percieved this way by Appian. > > Let me say that the story has already faded in my mind and mingled with half > ideas, my own experiences, and the way I would like it to be. (as I'm sure > happens to us all) > > One timeless question (FunkMonkey steps in line behind hundreds of > philosophers, ancient to modern) How much free will does Severian have? > When does Tra. KNOW Severain has passed. Have they engineered him from the > begining and so no test is needed? He has some power from the White > Fountain long before heading into space, as Sev himself says, 'as if the > presentment of his future came back through time to him.' Assuming he > raised Triskle from the dead he has had his 'powers' from the begining. > Everyone on Urth in Sev's time knows of the Concilliator. The Concilliator > is Sev returning triumphant. Thus Severian has already suceeded before he > begun! Or has he? Time travel always throws me through a logic loop. Like > asking the question "If I went back in time and killed my past self, who > would grow up to kill me?" Any thoughts? This could be and endless > discussion. > > FunkMonkey > with the logical MonkeyWrench > > J. Schutlz > jschultz at wcnet.org > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.6 --------------- > > From: m.driussi at genie.com > Subject: (urth) Questions Keep Questing > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 04:11:00 GMT > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Adam, > > FWIW I didn't take your post in a querulous mode. And I'm glad that > something I wrote seemed clear and enlightening, but of course I was > only shooting in the dark and I can't hope to hit a homer every time, > even if it is a room full of ancient Greek poets who are blind, just > to mix metaphors (and this one is for raster--don't think I didn't > laugh on that homer quip). > > I'm comfortable with the paradoxes I hold in suspension on this one. > If I can continue to explain what I see, maybe you can see it even if > you don't particularly believe it. > > The Peter Principle is about the triumph of mediocrity, I think. > > Il Principe is Machiavelli's work about amoral statecraft. > > Peter Wright's papers on the "Fictions of the New Sun" provide a > Machiavellian reading (which, in turn, makes Severian's narrative > much closer to Herbert's DUNE series than Tolkien's LOTR). > > "Sirens of Titan" is another good touchstone and I'm glad you brought > it up. This is the "sarcastic" or "cosmic joke" answer to the Big > Question, and I think we can all agree that it isn't an > overwhelmingly fitting solution to the Briah/Yesod situation. > > Some of your questions can be answered: The situation facing Severian > rides a tightrope between free-will and pre-destination. > > This by itself is a huge topic. Philosophy, physics, metaphysics, > etc. > > In practical terms, we rejoice that Severian took the brown book, > rather than Canog's Book of the New Sun, because this "opens the > loop" and makes the oracular power of the tales work their magic on > Severian, which then helps him behave in a certain way, which is then > faithfully recorded as Canog's Book of the New Sun. If Severian had > taken Canog's, it would have been a closed loop "blueprint"; Severian > would have been reduced to being a robot--and maybe would have > resisted doing it, and the whole thing would collapse. > > Likewise, nobody with any authority and/or knowledge could ever "tell > Severian the truth" or "what to do" or anything like that. For the > same reason. They tell him just enough and just in time. He has to > be guided to the right decision, but he cannot be simply told, nor > forced to do something. > > Maybe we could liken it to developing a photograph: it is done in the > dark, by mysterious rituals and formula, but there is a goal in mind > and it begins to materialize until finally it is done and we can turn > on the light and see it clearly. > > As for why does Yesod care. Well, one model is that Briah and Yesod > are two halves of the same creature--one is male and one is female, > to use the crudest analogy. They must have an exchange of > information to ensure their own future survival: Urth gets a New Sun, > and Yesod gets the next stage closer to Hieros . . . who will then > make hierogrammates. It all is a reproductive rite; as if homo > sapiens were to guide australopithecus toward becoming homo erectus, > so that homo erectus would give way to homo sapiens. > > Which brings us to another dicotomy: the breaking of the human > experience into Pure Order and the wild things. Cyriaca's tale of > posthistory tells us that the First Empire was founded upon the one > (Order) and brought down by the rejected other (non-order). The > implication being (I think) that there should be a balance, within > the individual and within the culture. > > Not to be "zen" about it, nor too smug, but questions about the very > mysterious first half of URTH should not be focused entirely in the > "logical" or "rational" mode. If Order leads to brick walls of > confusion, see if Non-order can lead to a doorway. If "modern > science" can't answer, try "cave painting poetry" instead. > > If you haven't already, you really should read Wright's essays. You > might find that they fit you like a tee. > > =mantis= > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.7 --------------- > > From: mary whalen > Subject: (urth) David as Maitre 2 > Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:39:50 -0700 (PDT) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > This is Sean Whalen (prion). > > I think that in _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_ the junior officer who > reviews VRT's case is actually David. First, David is known to have > gone to the capital after his father's death, presumably to follow his > love of political power. Plenty of time has passed since the murder > and VRT's arrest for him to have attained such a position and to have > held it for a fairly significant amount of time. Also, he is called a > junior officer and the other officer he meets is called a brother > officer. This is an allusion to the fact that David is younger than > his "brother" No. 5. The other person the j.o. is mentioned in this > story to be younger than is his slave, who is probably one of the > clones or altered clones of Maitre. This seems to be plenty, in a > Wolfe book, to link him to David. More, he is only addressed as > Maitre, just like his father was, continuing the chain of linkage. > The other officer also says that he always was a night owl, which is > similar to the way that David and No. 5 stayed up when they were young > in FHC. Also, when he hits the slave, it is like a reversal of when > No. 5 accidently stabbed him when he was fighting the other clone of > Maitre with four arms. > > prion > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.8 --------------- > > From: mary whalen > Subject: (urth) Fifth Head miscellaney > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:05:28 -0700 (PDT) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > This is Sean Whalen (prion). > > I just wanted to put down a few minor miscellaneous points I have in > my mind about _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_. > > Today I saw a show about Neanderthals. It seems that their > flintworkers could make a blade that is the sharpest known to man, as > could the later humans. The discusser said that it is even sharper > than a modern surgeon's scalpel. Marsch talks about how flint can be > chipped with little dexterity when he talks to RT speculating about > how he could make the implements he sells as Annese with his arthritic > hands. VRT probably used flint to cut out the first pages of Marsch's > diary, which are said in the story to have been cut out with an > instrument sharper than a scalpel. > > VRT may have bought the brass circumciser to use on himself, so that > he would not be discovered to be impersonating Marsch if his books > were found. Did he ever get to use it? I don't know if anyone in > authority ever saw him naked, and he asked not to be strip-searched by > the men who arrest him. > > Isn't it possible that VRT didn't kill Marsch, but that he was killed > by the tire-tiger? In the journal, written by VRT, it says that > Marsch was attacked by the waiting tiger when he came down from the > tree, and that he should have been mauled but was absurdly lucky, and > was only knocked back into a thorn bush. It seems to me that the > tiger actually killed Marsch, and that VRT wrote that Marsch survived > so that he could take his place. Otherwise, there's no reason to > include this passage at all, as it seems ridiculous that Marsch could > actually save himself if the tiger attacked as he came down the tree. > > Again, I wonder if VRT actually killed the cat-girl or just wrote that > so that he wouldn't have to write about her interactions with Marsch, > which would have been very different from the interactions he had with > her, and too difficult for him to make up. When he begins to write in > the journal, he also talks about "we" a lot, apparently about him and > the mules, but perhaps not. > > I don't think that I believe Robert Borski's idea that RT is actually > an abo himself. It seems odd that his wife and son have green eyes > when he doesn't. VRT thinks he's a human, he says that what happens > to his hands will keep him from his profession, implying that he had > tool-using hands before. He can operate the buttons that his wife > can't. > > Also, I believe that there was some discussion about what VRT and > Maitre believe about Jeannine's genetic relations when VRT says that > she is the daughter of "shall we say an earlier 'version'" of No. 5. > It seems possible that he meant a version as the parent of the Gene > Wolfe genome, rather than an earlier person in the line of clones. > However, in jail VRT says that Jeannine is genetically Gene's > daughter. At that time, remember, VRT didn't know that No. 5 knew he > was a clone, and was thus just being subtle. > > prion > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.9 --------------- > > From: Peter Westlake > Subject: Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:23:52 +0100 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > References: <199807022151.OAA05425 at lists1.best.com> > In-Reply-To: <199807051857.LAA20487 at lists1.best.com> > > At 13:57 1998-07-05 -0500, Adam wrote: >> prion wrote: >>> A previous letter to the list (I'm sorry but I don't remember when) >>> asked how the Commonwealth could be in a South America geographically >>> similar to the current continent when the Commonwealth is described as >>> consisting of an archipelago of islands to the south. The answer is >>> that SA does have a long chain of many islands in the south, but it >>> closely follows the close, so the questioner probably wouldn't >>> remember them or have noticed them just by casually looking in the >>> first place. >> I was the original questioner, and I was aware of the islands in the >> south of SA. My question was based on my belief that Severian was >> asserting that the Commonwealth consisted entirely of islands. But >> reexamining the quote, it now seems clear to me that the relevant >> phrase--"a chain of islands like our south"--refers to the southern- >> most portion of the Commonwealth, and not to the Commonwealth as a >> whole, as I had originally thought. So there's no problem there. > Hasn't Wolfe said that Gyoll is the Orinoco? As usual, I can't find > the place where I read this. But I looked at an atlas yesterday and > was quite surprised. Because if it's true, then the islands in the > South - the direction away from the Equator - would be the West Indies. > Last year Scott Dalrymple wrote: >> And, regarding Vodalus's assertion that Urth has flipped on her axis, would >> that matter? To someone like Severian, wouldn't the world appear to be the >> same? He'd still be traveling toward Urth's belly to reach the tropical >> regions. After all, North and South, while tied to poles, are somewhat >> arbitrary constructs, aren't they? Why couldn't we depict the world with >> the South Pole on "top"? Maybe we've got the whole universe upside-down. > (I quote Scott because I can't find the original quote ;-) > > It makes sense for the West Indies to be rather colder than nowadays, > while the islands along the coast of South America would surely be > under the ice. The West Indies are more of an archipelago, too. > I think this also explains why the rivers all flow West, when we > would expect them to flow East. > > In _Citadel_ Severian is walking North with the sea to the West and > the Sun rising on his right. The Sun still rises in the East, I think > (doesn't Typhon's statue face West, away from the sunrise?) so this > really would be the world having turned over, not a magnetic reversal. > Mind you, this is about the one place in the whole book where left > or right are mentioned explicitly. I would almost rather believe the > Sun rose in the West than trust Severian to know which way was right, > given his total inability to follow directions. > > SBear. > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.10 --------------- > > From: mary whalen > Subject: Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:35:52 -0700 (PDT) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > This is Sean Whalen (prion). > > ---Peter Westlake wrote: >> At 13:57 1998-07-05 -0500, Adam wrote: >>> prion wrote: >>>> A previous letter to the list (I'm sorry but I don't remember when) >>>> asked how the Commonwealth could be in a South America >>>> geographically >>>> similar to the current continent when the Commonwealth is >>>> described as >>>> consisting of an archipelago of islands to the south. The answer >>>> is >>>> that SA does have a long chain of many islands in the south, but it >>>> closely follows the close, so the questioner probably wouldn't >>>> remember them or have noticed them just by casually looking in the >>>> first place. >>> I was the original questioner, and I was aware of the islands in the >>> south of SA. My question was based on my belief that Severian was >>> asserting that the Commonwealth consisted entirely of islands. But >>> reexamining the quote, it now seems clear to me that the relevant >>> phrase--"a chain of islands like our south"--refers to the southern- >>> most portion of the Commonwealth, and not to the Commonwealth as a >>> whole, as I had originally thought. So there's no problem there. >> Hasn't Wolfe said that Gyoll is the Orinoco? As usual, I can't find >> the place where I read this. But I looked at an atlas yesterday and >> was quite surprised. Because if it's true, then the islands in the >> South - the direction away from the Equator - would be the West >> Indies. > Wheww. How's that for a bundle of citations? > > I don't remember Wolfe ever saying this, and it doesn't appear > possible (see below). >> Last year Scott Dalrymple wrote: >>> And, regarding Vodalus's assertion that Urth has flipped on her >>> axis, would >>> that matter? To someone like Severian, wouldn't the world appear >>> to be the >>> same? He'd still be traveling toward Urth's belly to reach the >>> tropical >>> regions. After all, North and South, while tied to poles, are >>> somewhat >>> arbitrary constructs, aren't they? Why couldn't we depict the >>> world with >>> the South Pole on "top"? Maybe we've got the whole universe >>> upside-down. > Vodalus was talking about the magnetic axis flipping, which has > happened often before on Earth. > > North and south may seem arbitrary, but east and west definitely > aren't. The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Assuming a > human has a head in one direction and feet in the other, it is > possible to determine which side is left and which right, and they are > different. But anyway, with a person's left to the west and right to > the east, he would be facing north, as happens to Severian (see below). >> (I quote Scott because I can't find the original quote ;-) >> >> It makes sense for the West Indies to be rather colder than nowadays, >> while the islands along the coast of South America would surely be >> under the ice. The West Indies are more of an archipelago, too. >> I think this also explains why the rivers all flow West, when we >> would expect them to flow East. >> >> In _Citadel_ Severian is walking North with the sea to the West and >> the Sun rising on his right. The Sun still rises in the East, I think >> (doesn't Typhon's statue face West, away from the sunrise?) so this >> really would be the world having turned over, not a magnetic reversal. >> Mind you, this is about the one place in the whole book where left >> or right are mentioned explicitly. I would almost rather believe the >> Sun rose in the West than trust Severian to know which way was right, >> given his total inability to follow directions. >> >> SBear. > As I understand it, the entire geography is like this: the sea level > is lower because the colder temperature has frozen more water into the > ice caps. There is thus more land. South America is in the general > area it is now, with a similar distribution of continents. Nessus is > on the west coast, west of the "Andes" and perhaps on land that is > currently underwater. The Gyoll flows from it's source in the Andes > west to it's mouth on the west coast. East of the Andes is the Amazon > jungle. North in North America is the country of the Ascians. West > are the Xanthic lands (Asia). > > To explain: in the book it says that to the south are the narrow > lands and the southern archipelago. This could refer to either what > is currently north or south, however, it also says that to the north > is the waist of the world and north of that the Ascians. There is no > isthmus to what we call the south. Therefore, the directions are the > same as we use today. The Ascians live in North America, the waist is > the Isthmus of Panama and environs. The narrow lands are the narrow > southern part of South America. Also, the islands may not be the ones > there today, but lower ones revealed by the receded ocean. Severian > also says that the north is hotter, in some sections of the books. > > The rivers flow west because he's west of the Andes. There's also > more land in that area because of the sea level. > > I've already discussed how Severian's northward journey helps confirm > this. > > prion > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > --------------- END urth.v017.n006 --------------- ---