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The Urth list — 1 messages, 1 voices, 20 Jul 1998
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Internet Megantic — 20 Jul 1998, 09:53
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> At 03:43 20-07-98 -0700, you wrote:
>
> -------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n006 --------------
>
> 001 - adam louis stephanides 002 - adam louis stephanides 003 - Internet Megantic 004 - "Alex David Groce" 005 - "J. Schultz" 006 - m.driussi at genie.com - (urth) Questions Keep Questing
> 007 - mary whalen 008 - mary whalen 009 - Peter Westlake 010 - mary whalen
> URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works
>
>
> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.1 ---------------
>
> From: adam louis stephanides
> Subject: Severian and the White Fountain
> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:15:42 -0500 (CDT)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> In-Reply-To: <199807142021.NAA29492 at lists1.best.com>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 Christopher R. Culver wrote:
> > Adam asked:
> > > Why is it necessary for anybody to "bring the White Fountain" to Urth? Why
> > > can't the Hierogrammates just send it?<
> > This is, IMHO, rather simple. The Hierogrammates are theological beings who
> > serve the Pancreator. As such, they judge the sentient beings of their area
> > and decide whether those people are deserving of a miracle.
> What I meant to ask was not "Why don't the Hierogrammates distributes
> White Fountains to everybody who need one?" but "Having decided to give
> Urth a White Fountain, why don't they simply send Severian back to Urth,
> assuring him the White Fountain will be along shortly? Why go through
> this routine of having Severian "become" the White Fountain as well, which
> he then "guides" to Urth, or at least believes he does.
> > Also: >
> >
> > Severian mentions on the Ship of Tzadkiel that the Autarch is by right the
> > representative of Urth to the Hierodules, even though he rules a small
> > portion
> > of it.
> True, but Severian's "trial" is not, as he origingally believes, to
> determine his or Urth's moral fitness to receive the New Sun, but to
> determine the likelihood of his successfully bringing the New Sun. So
> it's not obvious why the New Sun needs to be brought by an ex officio
> "representative of Urth."
>
> --Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.2 ---------------
>
> From: adam louis stephanides
> Subject: Il (Peter) Principe
> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:35:59 -0500 (CDT)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> In-Reply-To: <199807140634.XAA22362 at lists1.best.com>
>
>
> mantis,
>
> I was away for a few days, or I would have responded to your post earlier.
> I have a few minor cavils, which I'll discuss elsewhere, but I found it
> admirably clear and enlightening.
>
> Unfortunately, it only leaves me more baffled regarding _Urth_ as a whole.
> In fact, it now seems to me that _Urth_ is at least as obscure as
> _Castleview_. To start with, the Hierodules have been supporting the
> "rickety" political structure of the Commonwealth for a thousand years or
> more, apparently solely so that at the end of this time Severian, the
> man destined to bring the New Sun, will be Autarch. This is too
> reminiscent of _The Sirens of Titan_ for my taste. More to the point, it
> makes even more urgent the questions I asked in an earlier post: why must
> an Urthman bring the New Sun, why an Autarch, and why Severian? I'm not
> as confident that the answers I gave are correct as I was then, but I
> haven't seen any better answers. For that matter, I'm doubtful about the
> whole punishment-and-redemption-of-Urth schema: if the "redemption"
> involves wiping out 99.9% of Urth's population, one would think the
> "punishment" could be dispensed with as superfluous.
>
> I'm also baffled by the course of events surrounding Severian's "trial."
> Why is he led to think that his trial will be like his predecessor's? Is
> it just so he will be a more humane ruler as Autarch? But then why isn't
> he told the truth as soon as he leaves Urth?
>
> And what is the function of the battle royal between the sailors and the
> aquastors? Were the Hierogrammates really willing, after all those years
> of preparation, to risk the survival of their race on the outcome of that
> battle?
>
> In short, your post made me realize that so far, the first half of _Urth_
> doesn't make sense for me. Any help you, or anyone else of course, can
> give me would be most appreciated. (If this post seems querulous, it's a
> reflection of my desperation.)
>
> --Adam
>
>
>
> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.3 ---------------
>
> From: Internet Megantic
> Subject: unsuscribe- Digest urth.v017.n005
> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:32:19 -0400
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> At 21:10 18-07-98 -0700, you wrote:
> > -------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n005 --------------
> >
> > 001 - "William H. Ansley" > 002 - "Robert Borski" > 003 - "Alice Turner" > 004 - Derek Bell > 005 - raster at highfiber.com (Cha - Re: Claudius
> >
> > URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works
> >
> >
> > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.1 ---------------
> >
> > From: "William H. Ansley"
> > Subject: Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Space
> > Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:50:38 -0400
> > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > In-Reply-To: <199807180216.TAA14355 at lists1.best.com>
> > > One of the more puzzling names in THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS to be sourced
> > > is the Country of Friends. It's cited by the abos as the possible homeport
> > > of the star-faring Homo sapiens pangalacticus, who've traveled to Saint
> > > Anne in the distant past, and mentioned in the same breath as Atlantis and
> > > Gondwanaland.
> > >
> > > I'm now speculating it relates to the Aztecs.
> > >
> > > This is because Texas--where Gene Wolfe grew up--is derived from the Indian
> > > word "texia," meaning "friends." And since Texas was once part of Mexico,
> > > it's possible the Country of Friends generally refers to Aztecan
> > > civilization.
> > I like this too.
> >
> > I have a nagging idea that the phrase "the Country of Friends" occurs
> > elsewhere in Wolfe and I have seen it recently in my rereading. If I find
> > the reference, I will certainly post.
> >
> > William Ansley
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.2 ---------------
> >
> > From: "Robert Borski"
> > Subject: Sanderson's Abandonment
> > Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:26:00 -0500
> > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> > Earlier, in regards to my Continuing Westward post, Sean Whalen (aka prion)
> > wrote:
> >
> > "This seems to fit, but how does it fit in that he originally thought
> > that she stabbed Sanderson? He didn't just decide to leave him, he
> > thought that he was dead."
> >
> > This may relate to some aspect of a Kipling short story (The Phantom
> > Rickshaw?), but I'm not sure--it's been 30+ years since I read SOLDIERS
> > THREE and the other collections. Or it may be simple irony. Paris, the
> > Great Seducer, undone by his own lust (whereas the Paris of legend stakes a
> > claim to the most beautiful woman in the world and precipitates a war).
> >
> > Of course, all of the Homeric correspondences are rather loosely clumped
> > together--hence the notion of Greek Odysseus and Trojan Paris as
> > shipmates--so the search for parallels my be intriniscally flawed to begin
> > with, at least if we expect 100% fidelity with the Illiad/Odyssey.
> >
> > Also, what I forgot to mention in my Cherry Jubilee piece is that KGB agent
> > Vera Oussenko, who, as you mention, is arrested, represents truth, which
> > she is seeking, even though she gets it wrong (Vera = veritas), only in the
> > inverted value system of CJ she's "punished"--not being allowed to
> > disembark, she's spared the hell of Mars.
> >
> > Robert Borski
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.3 ---------------
> >
> > From: "Alice Turner"
> > Subject: Re: Digest urth.v017.n004
> > Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:16:27 -0400
> > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain;
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > > Don't know if this has been brought up before, but if Owen/Ouen is
> > > considered to be the Welsh/Celtic equivalent of Eugene, doesn't that mean
> > > Sev's father might also be called Gene?
> > From the Oxford book of English Christian names:
> >
> > OWEN: a common Welsh name; in Middle English romances often spelled Owain,
> > Owayne, Ywain. It has been supposed to be derived from Latin Eugenius...see
> > Ewan. (Ouen)
> >
> > EWEN: this name, now confined to Scotland, was once common in England...It
> > is probably the same as Irish and Gaelic Eoghan 'a youth,' which is frequent
> > in Celtic legend and history. Eoghan is usually derived from Primitive
> > Celtic Eugenius 'well-born,' from which is derived Old Welsh Euguein which
> > later became Middle Welsh Ewein, Ywein, whence modern Welsh Owain, Owen.
> >
> > Bravo, scolex. Thank you.
> >
> > -alga-
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.4 ---------------
> >
> > From: Derek Bell
> > Subject: Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Space
> > Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:22:08 +0100
> > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:50:38 EDT."
> > <199807180352.UAA19972 at lists1.best.com>
> >
> > In message <199807180352.UAA19972 at lists1.best.com>, "William H. Ansley"
writes:
> > > I have a nagging idea that the phrase "the Country of Friends" occurs
> > > elsewhere in Wolfe and I have seen it recently in my rereading. If I find
> > > the reference, I will certainly post.
> > I think it's in the short story _Feather Tigers_, IIRC. It
> > occurs in the dialog between the main protagonist and the sky(space?)
> > yacht.
> >
> > Derek
> >
> >
> > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.5 ---------------
> >
> > From: raster at highfiber.com (Charles Dye)
> > Subject: Re: Claudius
> > Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:36:57 -0600 (MDT)
> > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > CRCulver at aol.com writes:
> > > Alex:
> > > < Has there been any discussion on the list (sorry, I'm new and haven't had
> > > time to exhaustively browse the archives) of similarities between
> > > Severian and
> > > Claudius, both the historical emperor and the charming narrator of the two
> > > Robert Graves novels?>
> > > The point that comes to mind first is that both Claudius and Severian plan to
> > > write a manuscript they believe no one will read and get rid of it in a lead
> > > coffer.
> > The dead giveaway, for me anyhow, was the scene where Severian produces one
> > of 'his' aes in the era of Typhon:
> >
> > He examined it, bit it, and gave it back to me. "Gold all right.
> > Looks a trifle like you, 'cept he seems to have got himself cut up.
> > Don't suppose you noticed."
> >
> > "No," I said. "I never thought of it."
> >
> > Hadelin nodded and pushed back his chair. "A man doesn't shave himself
> > sidewise. See you in the morning, sieur, madame."
> >
> > Compare with a scene from "Claudius the God" chapter 6 :
> >
> > It pleased my vanity to have my head on the coins.... Portraits on
> > coins, however, are always disappointing because they are executed in
> > profile, and it comes as a shock, when one sees it in a portrait, that
> > one really looks like that to people standing beside one. For one's
> > full face, because of the familiarity that mirrors give it, a certain
> > toleration and even affection is felt; but I must say that when I first
> > saw the model that the mint-masters were striking for me I grew angry
> > and asked whether it was intended to be a caricature.
> >
> > Robert Graves once did a translation of "The Lives of the Twelve Caesars"
> > in which each Emperor's chapter was illustrated with the appropriate aureus.
> >
> > raster at highfiber.com
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------- END urth.v017.n005 ---------------
> >
> >
> > *More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/
> /Serges
> Internet Megantic
> http://www.megantic.net/
>
>
>
> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.4 ---------------
>
> From: "Alex David Groce"
> Subject: Eleanor Bold
> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:57:36 -0400
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I've often wondered if the name "Eleanor Bold" in PEACE is simply a
> coincidence, or is intended to mean something. I've seen Wolfe refer to
> Trollope before, particularly in an essay or interview when he was discussing
> the value to a writer of having a job other than writing (I think this is in
> CASTLE OF DAYS). So, it seems reasonable to assume Wolfe's read BARCHESTER
> TOWERS, and possibly all of the Barchester books, and it is an intentional
> effect. But what exactly is it supposed to suggest? Any ideas?
>
> --
> "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." - John 8:32
> --
> Alex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)
> Senior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)
> '98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President
> 608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366
> http://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce
>
>
> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.5 ---------------
>
> From: "J. Schultz"
> Subject: Autarch
> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:42:38 -0400
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> It takes me a while to get around to reading all my mail. This is in
> response to the difference between Autarch and Monarch. As we have all
> figured by now Autarch means one who rules themselves. This idea works into
> one of the themes I see present in the first set of books (tBotNS). At each
> step in Severian's development we see him cast off the power of one
> authority after another. He breaks his ties from the authority of the
> guild, the Archon and his post as Lictor, Typhon, etc. It all leads up to
> the point where just before the Lake people attack the castle of Baldanders,
> when Severian says (to paraphrase) I began to follow the Increate's
> authority above all others. Severian has become his own man, as it were.
> He decides for himself what is right and wrong, moral and evil, with a
> personal relationship with God. Thus I feel that the title "Autarch" is
> symbolic of this change and that the title has more thematic meaning, rather
> than any real practical meaning in the way of legal proceedure. A rose is a
> rose is a rose. Or, it doesn't really matter what you call him, the idea is
> that he is the top dog and no one is higher, the one man who rules himself.
> As we find out, however, the Autarch is the subject of the Hierodules and
> other higher powers (at least in some sense of the word). We can't forget
> that the message of tBotNS is basically spiritual and religious, whether we
> like it or not. In my mind it is the redemption of a torturer who is lost
> in an immoral and decaying world.
>
> As far as what would have happened had Appian let Severian enter Yesod, he
> most likely would have failed having not learned the important lessons that
> were to come. However, He would have EATEN Appian's brains AT THAT TIME.
> Appian even says, "Gee, sorry I'm so shocked but I thought I had more time."
> Which leads me to believe that Appian knows that Sev will take the throne
> and he knows that to take the throne he (Appian) has to be dead. I would
> balk too if my replacement walked in the door and said, "Well, I'm ready,
> take me to the garden and get your brains ready." While Sev doesn't say
> this it is percieved this way by Appian.
>
> Let me say that the story has already faded in my mind and mingled with half
> ideas, my own experiences, and the way I would like it to be. (as I'm sure
> happens to us all)
>
> One timeless question (FunkMonkey steps in line behind hundreds of
> philosophers, ancient to modern) How much free will does Severian have?
> When does Tra. KNOW Severain has passed. Have they engineered him from the
> begining and so no test is needed? He has some power from the White
> Fountain long before heading into space, as Sev himself says, 'as if the
> presentment of his future came back through time to him.' Assuming he
> raised Triskle from the dead he has had his 'powers' from the begining.
> Everyone on Urth in Sev's time knows of the Concilliator. The Concilliator
> is Sev returning triumphant. Thus Severian has already suceeded before he
> begun! Or has he? Time travel always throws me through a logic loop. Like
> asking the question "If I went back in time and killed my past self, who
> would grow up to kill me?" Any thoughts? This could be and endless
> discussion.
>
> FunkMonkey
> with the logical MonkeyWrench
>
> J. Schutlz
> jschultz at wcnet.org
>
>
>
>
> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.6 ---------------
>
> From: m.driussi at genie.com
> Subject: (urth) Questions Keep Questing
> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 04:11:00 GMT
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Adam,
>
> FWIW I didn't take your post in a querulous mode. And I'm glad that
> something I wrote seemed clear and enlightening, but of course I was
> only shooting in the dark and I can't hope to hit a homer every time,
> even if it is a room full of ancient Greek poets who are blind, just
> to mix metaphors (and this one is for raster--don't think I didn't
> laugh on that homer quip).
>
> I'm comfortable with the paradoxes I hold in suspension on this one.
> If I can continue to explain what I see, maybe you can see it even if
> you don't particularly believe it.
>
> The Peter Principle is about the triumph of mediocrity, I think.
>
> Il Principe is Machiavelli's work about amoral statecraft.
>
> Peter Wright's papers on the "Fictions of the New Sun" provide a
> Machiavellian reading (which, in turn, makes Severian's narrative
> much closer to Herbert's DUNE series than Tolkien's LOTR).
>
> "Sirens of Titan" is another good touchstone and I'm glad you brought
> it up. This is the "sarcastic" or "cosmic joke" answer to the Big
> Question, and I think we can all agree that it isn't an
> overwhelmingly fitting solution to the Briah/Yesod situation.
>
> Some of your questions can be answered: The situation facing Severian
> rides a tightrope between free-will and pre-destination.
>
> This by itself is a huge topic. Philosophy, physics, metaphysics,
> etc.
>
> In practical terms, we rejoice that Severian took the brown book,
> rather than Canog's Book of the New Sun, because this "opens the
> loop" and makes the oracular power of the tales work their magic on
> Severian, which then helps him behave in a certain way, which is then
> faithfully recorded as Canog's Book of the New Sun. If Severian had
> taken Canog's, it would have been a closed loop "blueprint"; Severian
> would have been reduced to being a robot--and maybe would have
> resisted doing it, and the whole thing would collapse.
>
> Likewise, nobody with any authority and/or knowledge could ever "tell
> Severian the truth" or "what to do" or anything like that. For the
> same reason. They tell him just enough and just in time. He has to
> be guided to the right decision, but he cannot be simply told, nor
> forced to do something.
>
> Maybe we could liken it to developing a photograph: it is done in the
> dark, by mysterious rituals and formula, but there is a goal in mind
> and it begins to materialize until finally it is done and we can turn
> on the light and see it clearly.
>
> As for why does Yesod care. Well, one model is that Briah and Yesod
> are two halves of the same creature--one is male and one is female,
> to use the crudest analogy. They must have an exchange of
> information to ensure their own future survival: Urth gets a New Sun,
> and Yesod gets the next stage closer to Hieros . . . who will then
> make hierogrammates. It all is a reproductive rite; as if homo
> sapiens were to guide australopithecus toward becoming homo erectus,
> so that homo erectus would give way to homo sapiens.
>
> Which brings us to another dicotomy: the breaking of the human
> experience into Pure Order and the wild things. Cyriaca's tale of
> posthistory tells us that the First Empire was founded upon the one
> (Order) and brought down by the rejected other (non-order). The
> implication being (I think) that there should be a balance, within
> the individual and within the culture.
>
> Not to be "zen" about it, nor too smug, but questions about the very
> mysterious first half of URTH should not be focused entirely in the
> "logical" or "rational" mode. If Order leads to brick walls of
> confusion, see if Non-order can lead to a doorway. If "modern
> science" can't answer, try "cave painting poetry" instead.
>
> If you haven't already, you really should read Wright's essays. You
> might find that they fit you like a tee.
>
> =mantis=
>
>
> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.7 ---------------
>
> From: mary whalen
> Subject: (urth) David as Maitre 2
> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:39:50 -0700 (PDT)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> This is Sean Whalen (prion).
>
> I think that in _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_ the junior officer who
> reviews VRT's case is actually David. First, David is known to have
> gone to the capital after his father's death, presumably to follow his
> love of political power. Plenty of time has passed since the murder
> and VRT's arrest for him to have attained such a position and to have
> held it for a fairly significant amount of time. Also, he is called a
> junior officer and the other officer he meets is called a brother
> officer. This is an allusion to the fact that David is younger than
> his "brother" No. 5. The other person the j.o. is mentioned in this
> story to be younger than is his slave, who is probably one of the
> clones or altered clones of Maitre. This seems to be plenty, in a
> Wolfe book, to link him to David. More, he is only addressed as
> Maitre, just like his father was, continuing the chain of linkage.
> The other officer also says that he always was a night owl, which is
> similar to the way that David and No. 5 stayed up when they were young
> in FHC. Also, when he hits the slave, it is like a reversal of when
> No. 5 accidently stabbed him when he was fighting the other clone of
> Maitre with four arms.
>
> prion
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.8 ---------------
>
> From: mary whalen
> Subject: (urth) Fifth Head miscellaney
> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:05:28 -0700 (PDT)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> This is Sean Whalen (prion).
>
> I just wanted to put down a few minor miscellaneous points I have in
> my mind about _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_.
>
> Today I saw a show about Neanderthals. It seems that their
> flintworkers could make a blade that is the sharpest known to man, as
> could the later humans. The discusser said that it is even sharper
> than a modern surgeon's scalpel. Marsch talks about how flint can be
> chipped with little dexterity when he talks to RT speculating about
> how he could make the implements he sells as Annese with his arthritic
> hands. VRT probably used flint to cut out the first pages of Marsch's
> diary, which are said in the story to have been cut out with an
> instrument sharper than a scalpel.
>
> VRT may have bought the brass circumciser to use on himself, so that
> he would not be discovered to be impersonating Marsch if his books
> were found. Did he ever get to use it? I don't know if anyone in
> authority ever saw him naked, and he asked not to be strip-searched by
> the men who arrest him.
>
> Isn't it possible that VRT didn't kill Marsch, but that he was killed
> by the tire-tiger? In the journal, written by VRT, it says that
> Marsch was attacked by the waiting tiger when he came down from the
> tree, and that he should have been mauled but was absurdly lucky, and
> was only knocked back into a thorn bush. It seems to me that the
> tiger actually killed Marsch, and that VRT wrote that Marsch survived
> so that he could take his place. Otherwise, there's no reason to
> include this passage at all, as it seems ridiculous that Marsch could
> actually save himself if the tiger attacked as he came down the tree.
>
> Again, I wonder if VRT actually killed the cat-girl or just wrote that
> so that he wouldn't have to write about her interactions with Marsch,
> which would have been very different from the interactions he had with
> her, and too difficult for him to make up. When he begins to write in
> the journal, he also talks about "we" a lot, apparently about him and
> the mules, but perhaps not.
>
> I don't think that I believe Robert Borski's idea that RT is actually
> an abo himself. It seems odd that his wife and son have green eyes
> when he doesn't. VRT thinks he's a human, he says that what happens
> to his hands will keep him from his profession, implying that he had
> tool-using hands before. He can operate the buttons that his wife
> can't.
>
> Also, I believe that there was some discussion about what VRT and
> Maitre believe about Jeannine's genetic relations when VRT says that
> she is the daughter of "shall we say an earlier 'version'" of No. 5.
> It seems possible that he meant a version as the parent of the Gene
> Wolfe genome, rather than an earlier person in the line of clones.
> However, in jail VRT says that Jeannine is genetically Gene's
> daughter. At that time, remember, VRT didn't know that No. 5 knew he
> was a clone, and was thus just being subtle.
>
> prion
> _________________________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.9 ---------------
>
> From: Peter Westlake
> Subject: Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth
> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:23:52 +0100
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> References: <199807022151.OAA05425 at lists1.best.com>
> In-Reply-To: <199807051857.LAA20487 at lists1.best.com>
>
> At 13:57 1998-07-05 -0500, Adam wrote:
> > prion wrote:
> > > A previous letter to the list (I'm sorry but I don't remember when)
> > > asked how the Commonwealth could be in a South America geographically
> > > similar to the current continent when the Commonwealth is described as
> > > consisting of an archipelago of islands to the south. The answer is
> > > that SA does have a long chain of many islands in the south, but it
> > > closely follows the close, so the questioner probably wouldn't
> > > remember them or have noticed them just by casually looking in the
> > > first place.
> > I was the original questioner, and I was aware of the islands in the
> > south of SA. My question was based on my belief that Severian was
> > asserting that the Commonwealth consisted entirely of islands. But
> > reexamining the quote, it now seems clear to me that the relevant
> > phrase--"a chain of islands like our south"--refers to the southern-
> > most portion of the Commonwealth, and not to the Commonwealth as a
> > whole, as I had originally thought. So there's no problem there.
> Hasn't Wolfe said that Gyoll is the Orinoco? As usual, I can't find
> the place where I read this. But I looked at an atlas yesterday and
> was quite surprised. Because if it's true, then the islands in the
> South - the direction away from the Equator - would be the West Indies.
> Last year Scott Dalrymple wrote:
> > And, regarding Vodalus's assertion that Urth has flipped on her axis, would
> > that matter? To someone like Severian, wouldn't the world appear to be the
> > same? He'd still be traveling toward Urth's belly to reach the tropical
> > regions. After all, North and South, while tied to poles, are somewhat
> > arbitrary constructs, aren't they? Why couldn't we depict the world with
> > the South Pole on "top"? Maybe we've got the whole universe upside-down.
> (I quote Scott because I can't find the original quote ;-)
>
> It makes sense for the West Indies to be rather colder than nowadays,
> while the islands along the coast of South America would surely be
> under the ice. The West Indies are more of an archipelago, too.
> I think this also explains why the rivers all flow West, when we
> would expect them to flow East.
>
> In _Citadel_ Severian is walking North with the sea to the West and
> the Sun rising on his right. The Sun still rises in the East, I think
> (doesn't Typhon's statue face West, away from the sunrise?) so this
> really would be the world having turned over, not a magnetic reversal.
> Mind you, this is about the one place in the whole book where left
> or right are mentioned explicitly. I would almost rather believe the
> Sun rose in the West than trust Severian to know which way was right,
> given his total inability to follow directions.
>
> SBear.
>
>
>
> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.10 ---------------
>
> From: mary whalen
> Subject: Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth
> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:35:52 -0700 (PDT)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> This is Sean Whalen (prion).
>
> ---Peter Westlake wrote:
> > At 13:57 1998-07-05 -0500, Adam wrote:
> > > prion wrote:
> > > > A previous letter to the list (I'm sorry but I don't remember when)
> > > > asked how the Commonwealth could be in a South America
> > > > geographically
> > > > similar to the current continent when the Commonwealth is
> > > > described as
> > > > consisting of an archipelago of islands to the south. The answer
> > > > is
> > > > that SA does have a long chain of many islands in the south, but it
> > > > closely follows the close, so the questioner probably wouldn't
> > > > remember them or have noticed them just by casually looking in the
> > > > first place.
> > > I was the original questioner, and I was aware of the islands in the
> > > south of SA. My question was based on my belief that Severian was
> > > asserting that the Commonwealth consisted entirely of islands. But
> > > reexamining the quote, it now seems clear to me that the relevant
> > > phrase--"a chain of islands like our south"--refers to the southern-
> > > most portion of the Commonwealth, and not to the Commonwealth as a
> > > whole, as I had originally thought. So there's no problem there.
> > Hasn't Wolfe said that Gyoll is the Orinoco? As usual, I can't find
> > the place where I read this. But I looked at an atlas yesterday and
> > was quite surprised. Because if it's true, then the islands in the
> > South - the direction away from the Equator - would be the West
> > Indies.
> Wheww. How's that for a bundle of citations?
>
> I don't remember Wolfe ever saying this, and it doesn't appear
> possible (see below).
> > Last year Scott Dalrymple wrote:
> > > And, regarding Vodalus's assertion that Urth has flipped on her
> > > axis, would
> > > that matter? To someone like Severian, wouldn't the world appear
> > > to be the
> > > same? He'd still be traveling toward Urth's belly to reach the
> > > tropical
> > > regions. After all, North and South, while tied to poles, are
> > > somewhat
> > > arbitrary constructs, aren't they? Why couldn't we depict the
> > > world with
> > > the South Pole on "top"? Maybe we've got the whole universe
> > > upside-down.
> Vodalus was talking about the magnetic axis flipping, which has
> happened often before on Earth.
>
> North and south may seem arbitrary, but east and west definitely
> aren't. The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Assuming a
> human has a head in one direction and feet in the other, it is
> possible to determine which side is left and which right, and they are
> different. But anyway, with a person's left to the west and right to
> the east, he would be facing north, as happens to Severian (see below).
> > (I quote Scott because I can't find the original quote ;-)
> >
> > It makes sense for the West Indies to be rather colder than nowadays,
> > while the islands along the coast of South America would surely be
> > under the ice. The West Indies are more of an archipelago, too.
> > I think this also explains why the rivers all flow West, when we
> > would expect them to flow East.
> >
> > In _Citadel_ Severian is walking North with the sea to the West and
> > the Sun rising on his right. The Sun still rises in the East, I think
> > (doesn't Typhon's statue face West, away from the sunrise?) so this
> > really would be the world having turned over, not a magnetic reversal.
> > Mind you, this is about the one place in the whole book where left
> > or right are mentioned explicitly. I would almost rather believe the
> > Sun rose in the West than trust Severian to know which way was right,
> > given his total inability to follow directions.
> >
> > SBear.
> As I understand it, the entire geography is like this: the sea level
> is lower because the colder temperature has frozen more water into the
> ice caps. There is thus more land. South America is in the general
> area it is now, with a similar distribution of continents. Nessus is
> on the west coast, west of the "Andes" and perhaps on land that is
> currently underwater. The Gyoll flows from it's source in the Andes
> west to it's mouth on the west coast. East of the Andes is the Amazon
> jungle. North in North America is the country of the Ascians. West
> are the Xanthic lands (Asia).
>
> To explain: in the book it says that to the south are the narrow
> lands and the southern archipelago. This could refer to either what
> is currently north or south, however, it also says that to the north
> is the waist of the world and north of that the Ascians. There is no
> isthmus to what we call the south. Therefore, the directions are the
> same as we use today. The Ascians live in North America, the waist is
> the Isthmus of Panama and environs. The narrow lands are the narrow
> southern part of South America. Also, the islands may not be the ones
> there today, but lower ones revealed by the receded ocean. Severian
> also says that the north is hotter, in some sections of the books.
>
> The rivers flow west because he's west of the Andes. There's also
> more land in that area because of the sea level.
>
> I've already discussed how Severian's northward journey helps confirm
> this.
>
> prion
> _________________________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --------------- END urth.v017.n006 ---------------
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