{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1025", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1025, "subject": "unsuscribe: Digest urth.v017.n007", "messages": 1, "voices": 1, "first": "1998-07-21T20:28:03+00:00", "last": "1998-07-21T20:28:03+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Internet Megantic", "address": "support at megantic.net" }, "date": "1998-07-21T20:28:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) unsuscribe: Digest urth.v017.n007", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "unsuscribe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 19:19 20-07-98 -0700, you wrote:\n\n-------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n007 --------------\n\n 001 - mary whalen \nSubject: (urth) Jeannine as abo\nDate: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:49:10 -0700 (PDT)\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\n\nThis is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\nYet another piece of evidence that Aunt Jeannine in _The Fith Head of\nCerberus_ is really an abo impostor.\n\nOn page 52 of the Orb edition, No. 5 describes her withered legs as\n\"like the sticks David and I used as little boys, when doing parlor\nmagic, we wished Mr. Million to believe us lying prone when we were in\nfact crouched beneath our own supposed figures.\"\n\nHe's comparing her legs to devices used to deceive and make one thing\nseem to be another, to conceal.\n\nprion\n_________________________________________________________\nDO YOU YAHOO!?\nGet your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.2 ---------------\n\nFrom: mary whalen \nSubject: (urth) Lexicon Urthus\nDate: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:51:00 -0700 (PDT)\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\n\nThis is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\nConcerning the geography discussion, Michael Andre-Driussi's (mantis')\n_Lexicon Urthus_ has an excellent map illustrating my points in the\nprevious post.\n\nSeeing those carved mountains has reminded me of the question of how\nall of them could have been carved in the one to two thousand years\nWolfe said had passed between Typhon and Severian's time. Well, since\nthe time of the Conciliator to the narration of the books is like the\ntime of Jesus to the present (between 1000 and 2000 describes the\npresent) maybe he was being metaphoric when he said that he had always\nthought of it as being like between those times, comparing it to what\nwe have experienced. Or he may have been confused at the time when\nthinking about how he intended the metaphorical correlation.\n\nIn the books, the time period is given as \"thirty thousand years\" by\nAgia, and \"many chiliads\" by Severian. They could be wrong, but this\nwould be plenty of time for the mountains to be carved, and be in tune\nwith the action in the book and mantis' timeline.\n\nprion\n_________________________________________________________\nDO YOU YAHOO!?\nGet your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.3 ---------------\n\nFrom: Internet Megantic \nSubject: unsuscribe\nDate: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:53:47 -0400\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n\nunsuscribe\n\n\n\n\n\nAt 03:43 20-07-98 -0700, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n006 --------------\n\n 001 - adam louis stephanides \nSubject: Severian and the White Fountain\nDate: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:15:42 -0500 (CDT)\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII\nIn-Reply-To: <199807142021.NAA29492 at lists1.best.com>\n\n\n\nOn Tue, 14 Jul 1998 Christopher R. Culver wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Adam asked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why is it necessary for anybody to \"bring the White Fountain\" to Urth? Why\ncan't the Hierogrammates just send it?<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is, IMHO, rather simple. The Hierogrammates are theological beings who\nserve the Pancreator. As such, they judge the sentient beings of their area\nand decide whether those people are deserving of a miracle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What I meant to ask was not \"Why don't the Hierogrammates distributes\nWhite Fountains to everybody who need one?\" but \"Having decided to give\nUrth a White Fountain, why don't they simply send Severian back to Urth,\nassuring him the White Fountain will be along shortly? Why go through\nthis routine of having Severian \"become\" the White Fountain as well, which\nhe then \"guides\" to Urth, or at least believes he does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Also: > \n\nSeverian mentions on the Ship of Tzadkiel that the Autarch is by right the\nrepresentative of Urth to the Hierodules, even though he rules a small\nportion\nof it. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "True, but Severian's \"trial\" is not, as he origingally believes, to\ndetermine his or Urth's moral fitness to receive the New Sun, but to\ndetermine the likelihood of his successfully bringing the New Sun. So\nit's not obvious why the New Sun needs to be brought by an ex officio\n\"representative of Urth.\"\n\n--Adam\n\n\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.2 ---------------\n\nFrom: adam louis stephanides \nSubject: Il (Peter) Principe\nDate: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:35:59 -0500 (CDT)\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII\nIn-Reply-To: <199807140634.XAA22362 at lists1.best.com>\n\n\nmantis,\n\nI was away for a few days, or I would have responded to your post earlier.\nI have a few minor cavils, which I'll discuss elsewhere, but I found it\nadmirably clear and enlightening.\n\nUnfortunately, it only leaves me more baffled regarding _Urth_ as a whole.\nIn fact, it now seems to me that _Urth_ is at least as obscure as\n_Castleview_. To start with, the Hierodules have been supporting the\n\"rickety\" political structure of the Commonwealth for a thousand years or\nmore, apparently solely so that at the end of this time Severian, the\nman destined to bring the New Sun, will be Autarch. This is too\nreminiscent of _The Sirens of Titan_ for my taste. More to the point, it\nmakes even more urgent the questions I asked in an earlier post: why must\nan Urthman bring the New Sun, why an Autarch, and why Severian? I'm not\nas confident that the answers I gave are correct as I was then, but I\nhaven't seen any better answers. For that matter, I'm doubtful about the\nwhole punishment-and-redemption-of-Urth schema: if the \"redemption\"\ninvolves wiping out 99.9% of Urth's population, one would think the\n\"punishment\" could be dispensed with as superfluous.\n\nI'm also baffled by the course of events surrounding Severian's \"trial.\"\nWhy is he led to think that his trial will be like his predecessor's? Is\nit just so he will be a more humane ruler as Autarch? But then why isn't\nhe told the truth as soon as he leaves Urth?\n\nAnd what is the function of the battle royal between the sailors and the\naquastors? Were the Hierogrammates really willing, after all those years\nof preparation, to risk the survival of their race on the outcome of that\nbattle? \n\nIn short, your post made me realize that so far, the first half of _Urth_\ndoesn't make sense for me. Any help you, or anyone else of course, can\ngive me would be most appreciated. (If this post seems querulous, it's a\nreflection of my desperation.)\n\n--Adam\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.3 ---------------\n\nFrom: Internet Megantic \nSubject: unsuscribe- Digest urth.v017.n005\nDate: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:32:19 -0400\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n\nAt 21:10 18-07-98 -0700, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n005 --------------\n\n 001 - \"William H. Ansley\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Space\nDate: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:50:38 -0400\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\nIn-Reply-To: <199807180216.TAA14355 at lists1.best.com>" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "One of the more puzzling names in THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS to be sourced\nis the Country of Friends. It's cited by the abos as the possible homeport\nof the star-faring Homo sapiens pangalacticus, who've traveled to Saint\nAnne in the distant past, and mentioned in the same breath as Atlantis and\nGondwanaland.\n\nI'm now speculating it relates to the Aztecs.\n\nThis is because Texas--where Gene Wolfe grew up--is derived from the Indian\nword \"texia,\" meaning \"friends.\" And since Texas was once part of Mexico,\nit's possible the Country of Friends generally refers to Aztecan\ncivilization." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I like this too.\n\nI have a nagging idea that the phrase \"the Country of Friends\" occurs\nelsewhere in Wolfe and I have seen it recently in my rereading. If I find\nthe reference, I will certainly post.\n\nWilliam Ansley\n\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.2 ---------------\n\nFrom: \"Robert Borski\" \nSubject: Sanderson's Abandonment\nDate: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:26:00 -0500\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\n\nEarlier, in regards to my Continuing Westward post, Sean Whalen (aka prion)\nwrote:\n\n\"This seems to fit, but how does it fit in that he originally thought\nthat she stabbed Sanderson? He didn't just decide to leave him, he\nthought that he was dead.\"\n\nThis may relate to some aspect of a Kipling short story (The Phantom\nRickshaw?), but I'm not sure--it's been 30+ years since I read SOLDIERS\nTHREE and the other collections. Or it may be simple irony. Paris, the\nGreat Seducer, undone by his own lust (whereas the Paris of legend stakes a\nclaim to the most beautiful woman in the world and precipitates a war).\n\nOf course, all of the Homeric correspondences are rather loosely clumped\ntogether--hence the notion of Greek Odysseus and Trojan Paris as\nshipmates--so the search for parallels my be intriniscally flawed to begin\nwith, at least if we expect 100% fidelity with the Illiad/Odyssey.\n\nAlso, what I forgot to mention in my Cherry Jubilee piece is that KGB agent\nVera Oussenko, who, as you mention, is arrested, represents truth, which\nshe is seeking, even though she gets it wrong (Vera = veritas), only in the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "inverted value system of CJ she's \"punished\"--not being allowed to\ndisembark, she's spared the hell of Mars.\n\nRobert Borski\n\n\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.3 ---------------\n\nFrom: \"Alice Turner\" \nSubject: Re: Digest urth.v017.n004\nDate: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:16:27 -0400\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain;\ncharset=\"iso-8859-1\"\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Don't know if this has been brought up before, but if Owen/Ouen is\nconsidered to be the Welsh/Celtic equivalent of Eugene, doesn't that mean\nSev's father might also be called Gene?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From the Oxford book of English Christian names:\n\nOWEN: a common Welsh name; in Middle English romances often spelled Owain,\nOwayne, Ywain. It has been supposed to be derived from Latin Eugenius...see\nEwan. (Ouen)\n\nEWEN: this name, now confined to Scotland, was once common in England...It\nis probably the same as Irish and Gaelic Eoghan 'a youth,' which is frequent\nin Celtic legend and history. Eoghan is usually derived from Primitive\nCeltic Eugenius 'well-born,' from which is derived Old Welsh Euguein which\nlater became Middle Welsh Ewein, Ywein, whence modern Welsh Owain, Owen.\n\nBravo, scolex. Thank you.\n\n-alga-\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.4 ---------------\n\nFrom: Derek Bell \nSubject: Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Space\nDate: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:22:08 +0100\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\nIn-Reply-To: Your message of \"Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:50:38 EDT.\"\n <199807180352.UAA19972 at lists1.best.com>\n\nIn message <199807180352.UAA19972 at lists1.best.com>, \"William H. Ansley\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I have a nagging idea that the phrase \"the Country of Friends\" occurs\nelsewhere in Wolfe and I have seen it recently in my rereading. If I find\nthe reference, I will certainly post." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think it's in the short story _Feather Tigers_, IIRC. It\noccurs in the dialog between the main protagonist and the sky(space?)\nyacht.\n\nDerek\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.5 ---------------\n\nFrom: raster at highfiber.com (Charles Dye)\nSubject: Re: Claudius\nDate: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:36:57 -0600 (MDT)\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n\nCRCulver at aol.com writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Alex:\n< Has there been any discussion on the list (sorry, I'm new and haven't had\ntime to exhaustively browse the archives) of similarities between\nSeverian and\nClaudius, both the historical emperor and the charming narrator of the two\nRobert Graves novels?>" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The point that comes to mind first is that both Claudius and Severian\nplan to\nwrite a manuscript they believe no one will read and get rid of it in a lead\ncoffer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The dead giveaway, for me anyhow, was the scene where Severian produces one\nof 'his' aes in the era of Typhon:\n\n He examined it, bit it, and gave it back to me. \"Gold all right.\n Looks a trifle like you, 'cept he seems to have got himself cut up.\n Don't suppose you noticed.\"\n\n \"No,\" I said. \"I never thought of it.\"\n\n Hadelin nodded and pushed back his chair. \"A man doesn't shave himself\n sidewise. See you in the morning, sieur, madame.\"\n\nCompare with a scene from \"Claudius the God\" chapter 6 :\n\n It pleased my vanity to have my head on the coins.... Portraits on\n coins, however, are always disappointing because they are executed in\n profile, and it comes as a shock, when one sees it in a portrait, that\n one really looks like that to people standing beside one. For one's\n full face, because of the familiarity that mirrors give it, a certain\n toleration and even affection is felt; but I must say that when I first\n saw the model that the mint-masters were striking for me I grew angry\n and asked whether it was intended to be a caricature.\n\nRobert Graves once did a translation of \"The Lives of the Twelve Caesars\"\nin which each Emperor's chapter was illustrated with the appropriate aureus.\n\nraster at highfiber.com\n\n\n\n--------------- END urth.v017.n005 ---------------\n\n\n*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "/Serges\nInternet Megantic\nhttp://www.megantic.net/\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.4 ---------------\n\nFrom: \"Alex David Groce\" \nSubject: Eleanor Bold\nDate: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:57:36 -0400\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\n\nI've often wondered if the name \"Eleanor Bold\" in PEACE is simply a\ncoincidence, or is intended to mean something. I've seen Wolfe refer to\nTrollope before, particularly in an essay or interview when he was discussing\nthe value to a writer of having a job other than writing (I think this is in\nCASTLE OF DAYS). So, it seems reasonable to assume Wolfe's read BARCHESTER\nTOWERS, and possibly all of the Barchester books, and it is an intentional\neffect. But what exactly is it supposed to suggest? Any ideas?\n\n-- \n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.5 ---------------\n\nFrom: \"J. Schultz\" \nSubject: Autarch\nDate: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:42:38 -0400\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain;\ncharset=\"iso-8859-1\"\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\n\nIt takes me a while to get around to reading all my mail. This is in\nresponse to the difference between Autarch and Monarch. As we have all\nfigured by now Autarch means one who rules themselves. This idea works into\none of the themes I see present in the first set of books (tBotNS). At each\nstep in Severian's development we see him cast off the power of one\nauthority after another. He breaks his ties from the authority of the\nguild, the Archon and his post as Lictor, Typhon, etc. It all leads up to\nthe point where just before the Lake people attack the castle of Baldanders,\nwhen Severian says (to paraphrase) I began to follow the Increate's\nauthority above all others. Severian has become his own man, as it were.\nHe decides for himself what is right and wrong, moral and evil, with a\npersonal relationship with God. Thus I feel that the title \"Autarch\" is\nsymbolic of this change and that the title has more thematic meaning, rather\nthan any real practical meaning in the way of legal proceedure. A rose is a\nrose is a rose. Or, it doesn't really matter what you call him, the idea is\nthat he is the top dog and no one is higher, the one man who rules himself.\nAs we find out, however, the Autarch is the subject of the Hierodules and\nother higher powers (at least in some sense of the word). We can't forget\nthat the message of tBotNS is basically spiritual and religious, whether we\nlike it or not. In my mind it is the redemption of a torturer who is lost\nin an immoral and decaying world.\n\nAs far as what would have happened had Appian let Severian enter Yesod, he\nmost likely would have failed having not learned the important lessons that\nwere to come. However, He would have EATEN Appian's brains AT THAT TIME.\nAppian even says, \"Gee, sorry I'm so shocked but I thought I had more time.\"\nWhich leads me to believe that Appian knows that Sev will take the throne\nand he knows that to take the throne he (Appian) has to be dead. I would\nbalk too if my replacement walked in the door and said, \"Well, I'm ready,\ntake me to the garden and get your brains ready.\" While Sev doesn't say\nthis it is percieved this way by Appian.\n\nLet me say that the story has already faded in my mind and mingled with half\nideas, my own experiences, and the way I would like it to be. (as I'm sure\nhappens to us all)\n\nOne timeless question (FunkMonkey steps in line behind hundreds of\nphilosophers, ancient to modern) How much free will does Severian have?\nWhen does Tra. KNOW Severain has passed. Have they engineered him from the\nbegining and so no test is needed? He has some power from the White\nFountain long before heading into space, as Sev himself says, 'as if the\npresentment of his future came back through time to him.' Assuming he\nraised Triskle from the dead he has had his 'powers' from the begining.\nEveryone on Urth in Sev's time knows of the Concilliator. The Concilliator\nis Sev returning triumphant. Thus Severian has already suceeded before he\nbegun! Or has he? Time travel always throws me through a logic loop. Like\nasking the question \"If I went back in time and killed my past self, who\nwould grow up to kill me?\" Any thoughts? This could be and endless\ndiscussion.\n\nFunkMonkey\n with the logical MonkeyWrench\n\nJ. Schutlz\njschultz at wcnet.org\n\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.6 ---------------\n\nFrom: m.driussi at genie.com\nSubject: (urth) Questions Keep Questing\nDate: Mon, 20 Jul 98 04:11:00 GMT\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\n\nAdam,\n\nFWIW I didn't take your post in a querulous mode. And I'm glad that\nsomething I wrote seemed clear and enlightening, but of course I was\nonly shooting in the dark and I can't hope to hit a homer every time,\neven if it is a room full of ancient Greek poets who are blind, just\nto mix metaphors (and this one is for raster--don't think I didn't\nlaugh on that homer quip).\n\nI'm comfortable with the paradoxes I hold in suspension on this one.\nIf I can continue to explain what I see, maybe you can see it even if\nyou don't particularly believe it.\n\nThe Peter Principle is about the triumph of mediocrity, I think.\n\nIl Principe is Machiavelli's work about amoral statecraft.\n\nPeter Wright's papers on the \"Fictions of the New Sun\" provide a\nMachiavellian reading (which, in turn, makes Severian's narrative\nmuch closer to Herbert's DUNE series than Tolkien's LOTR).\n\n\"Sirens of Titan\" is another good touchstone and I'm glad you brought\nit up. This is the \"sarcastic\" or \"cosmic joke\" answer to the Big\nQuestion, and I think we can all agree that it isn't an\noverwhelmingly fitting solution to the Briah/Yesod situation.\n\nSome of your questions can be answered: The situation facing Severian\nrides a tightrope between free-will and pre-destination.\n\nThis by itself is a huge topic. Philosophy, physics, metaphysics,\netc.\n\nIn practical terms, we rejoice that Severian took the brown book,\nrather than Canog's Book of the New Sun, because this \"opens the\nloop\" and makes the oracular power of the tales work their magic on\nSeverian, which then helps him behave in a certain way, which is then\nfaithfully recorded as Canog's Book of the New Sun. If Severian had\ntaken Canog's, it would have been a closed loop \"blueprint\"; Severian\nwould have been reduced to being a robot--and maybe would have\nresisted doing it, and the whole thing would collapse.\n\nLikewise, nobody with any authority and/or knowledge could ever \"tell\nSeverian the truth\" or \"what to do\" or anything like that. For the\nsame reason. They tell him just enough and just in time. He has to\nbe guided to the right decision, but he cannot be simply told, nor\nforced to do something.\n\nMaybe we could liken it to developing a photograph: it is done in the\ndark, by mysterious rituals and formula, but there is a goal in mind\nand it begins to materialize until finally it is done and we can turn\non the light and see it clearly.\n\nAs for why does Yesod care. Well, one model is that Briah and Yesod\nare two halves of the same creature--one is male and one is female,\nto use the crudest analogy. They must have an exchange of\ninformation to ensure their own future survival: Urth gets a New Sun,\nand Yesod gets the next stage closer to Hieros . . . who will then\nmake hierogrammates. It all is a reproductive rite; as if homo\nsapiens were to guide australopithecus toward becoming homo erectus,\nso that homo erectus would give way to homo sapiens.\n\nWhich brings us to another dicotomy: the breaking of the human\nexperience into Pure Order and the wild things. Cyriaca's tale of\nposthistory tells us that the First Empire was founded upon the one\n(Order) and brought down by the rejected other (non-order). The\nimplication being (I think) that there should be a balance, within\nthe individual and within the culture.\n\nNot to be \"zen\" about it, nor too smug, but questions about the very\nmysterious first half of URTH should not be focused entirely in the\n\"logical\" or \"rational\" mode. If Order leads to brick walls of\nconfusion, see if Non-order can lead to a doorway. If \"modern\nscience\" can't answer, try \"cave painting poetry\" instead.\n\nIf you haven't already, you really should read Wright's essays. You\nmight find that they fit you like a tee.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.7 ---------------\n\nFrom: mary whalen \nSubject: (urth) David as Maitre 2\nDate: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:39:50 -0700 (PDT)\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\n\nThis is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\nI think that in _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_ the junior officer who\nreviews VRT's case is actually David. First, David is known to have\ngone to the capital after his father's death, presumably to follow his\nlove of political power. Plenty of time has passed since the murder\nand VRT's arrest for him to have attained such a position and to have\nheld it for a fairly significant amount of time. Also, he is called a\njunior officer and the other officer he meets is called a brother\nofficer. This is an allusion to the fact that David is younger than\nhis \"brother\" No. 5. The other person the j.o. is mentioned in this\nstory to be younger than is his slave, who is probably one of the\nclones or altered clones of Maitre. This seems to be plenty, in a\nWolfe book, to link him to David. More, he is only addressed as\nMaitre, just like his father was, continuing the chain of linkage. \nThe other officer also says that he always was a night owl, which is\nsimilar to the way that David and No. 5 stayed up when they were young\nin FHC. Also, when he hits the slave, it is like a reversal of when\nNo. 5 accidently stabbed him when he was fighting the other clone of\nMaitre with four arms.\n\nprion\n_________________________________________________________\nDO YOU YAHOO!?\nGet your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.8 ---------------\n\nFrom: mary whalen \nSubject: (urth) Fifth Head miscellaney\nDate: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:05:28 -0700 (PDT)\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\n\nThis is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\nI just wanted to put down a few minor miscellaneous points I have in\nmy mind about _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_.\n\nToday I saw a show about Neanderthals. It seems that their\nflintworkers could make a blade that is the sharpest known to man, as\ncould the later humans. The discusser said that it is even sharper\nthan a modern surgeon's scalpel. Marsch talks about how flint can be\nchipped with little dexterity when he talks to RT speculating about\nhow he could make the implements he sells as Annese with his arthritic\nhands. VRT probably used flint to cut out the first pages of Marsch's\ndiary, which are said in the story to have been cut out with an\ninstrument sharper than a scalpel.\n\nVRT may have bought the brass circumciser to use on himself, so that\nhe would not be discovered to be impersonating Marsch if his books\nwere found. Did he ever get to use it? I don't know if anyone in\nauthority ever saw him naked, and he asked not to be strip-searched by\nthe men who arrest him.\n\nIsn't it possible that VRT didn't kill Marsch, but that he was killed\nby the tire-tiger? In the journal, written by VRT, it says that\nMarsch was attacked by the waiting tiger when he came down from the\ntree, and that he should have been mauled but was absurdly lucky, and\nwas only knocked back into a thorn bush. It seems to me that the\ntiger actually killed Marsch, and that VRT wrote that Marsch survived\nso that he could take his place. Otherwise, there's no reason to\ninclude this passage at all, as it seems ridiculous that Marsch could\nactually save himself if the tiger attacked as he came down the tree.\n\nAgain, I wonder if VRT actually killed the cat-girl or just wrote that\nso that he wouldn't have to write about her interactions with Marsch,\nwhich would have been very different from the interactions he had with\nher, and too difficult for him to make up. When he begins to write in\nthe journal, he also talks about \"we\" a lot, apparently about him and\nthe mules, but perhaps not.\n\nI don't think that I believe Robert Borski's idea that RT is actually\nan abo himself. It seems odd that his wife and son have green eyes\nwhen he doesn't. VRT thinks he's a human, he says that what happens\nto his hands will keep him from his profession, implying that he had\ntool-using hands before. He can operate the buttons that his wife\ncan't.\n\nAlso, I believe that there was some discussion about what VRT and\nMaitre believe about Jeannine's genetic relations when VRT says that\nshe is the daughter of \"shall we say an earlier 'version'\" of No. 5. \nIt seems possible that he meant a version as the parent of the Gene\nWolfe genome, rather than an earlier person in the line of clones. \nHowever, in jail VRT says that Jeannine is genetically Gene's\ndaughter. At that time, remember, VRT didn't know that No. 5 knew he\nwas a clone, and was thus just being subtle.\n\nprion\n_________________________________________________________\nDO YOU YAHOO!?\nGet your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.9 ---------------\n\nFrom: Peter Westlake \nSubject: Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth\nDate: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:23:52 +0100\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\nReferences: <199807022151.OAA05425 at lists1.best.com>\nIn-Reply-To: <199807051857.LAA20487 at lists1.best.com>\n\nAt 13:57 1998-07-05 -0500, Adam wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "prion wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "A previous letter to the list (I'm sorry but I don't remember when)\nasked how the Commonwealth could be in a South America geographically\nsimilar to the current continent when the Commonwealth is described as\nconsisting of an archipelago of islands to the south. The answer is\nthat SA does have a long chain of many islands in the south, but it\nclosely follows the close, so the questioner probably wouldn't\nremember them or have noticed them just by casually looking in the\nfirst place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I was the original questioner, and I was aware of the islands in the\nsouth of SA. My question was based on my belief that Severian was\nasserting that the Commonwealth consisted entirely of islands. But\nreexamining the quote, it now seems clear to me that the relevant\nphrase--\"a chain of islands like our south\"--refers to the southern-\nmost portion of the Commonwealth, and not to the Commonwealth as a\nwhole, as I had originally thought. So there's no problem there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hasn't Wolfe said that Gyoll is the Orinoco? As usual, I can't find\nthe place where I read this. But I looked at an atlas yesterday and\nwas quite surprised. Because if it's true, then the islands in the\nSouth - the direction away from the Equator - would be the West Indies.\nLast year Scott Dalrymple wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And, regarding Vodalus's assertion that Urth has flipped on her axis, would\nthat matter? To someone like Severian, wouldn't the world appear to be the\nsame? He'd still be traveling toward Urth's belly to reach the tropical\nregions. After all, North and South, while tied to poles, are somewhat\narbitrary constructs, aren't they? Why couldn't we depict the world with\nthe South Pole on \"top\"? Maybe we've got the whole universe upside-down." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(I quote Scott because I can't find the original quote ;-)\n\nIt makes sense for the West Indies to be rather colder than nowadays,\nwhile the islands along the coast of South America would surely be\nunder the ice. The West Indies are more of an archipelago, too.\nI think this also explains why the rivers all flow West, when we\nwould expect them to flow East.\n\nIn _Citadel_ Severian is walking North with the sea to the West and\nthe Sun rising on his right. The Sun still rises in the East, I think\n(doesn't Typhon's statue face West, away from the sunrise?) so this\nreally would be the world having turned over, not a magnetic reversal.\nMind you, this is about the one place in the whole book where left\nor right are mentioned explicitly. I would almost rather believe the\nSun rose in the West than trust Severian to know which way was right,\ngiven his total inability to follow directions.\n\nSBear.\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.10 ---------------\n\nFrom: mary whalen \nSubject: Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth\nDate: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:35:52 -0700 (PDT)\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\n\nThis is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\n---Peter Westlake wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "At 13:57 1998-07-05 -0500, Adam wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "prion wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "A previous letter to the list (I'm sorry but I don't remember when)\nasked how the Commonwealth could be in a South America\ngeographically\nsimilar to the current continent when the Commonwealth is\ndescribed as\nconsisting of an archipelago of islands to the south. The answer\nis\nthat SA does have a long chain of many islands in the south, but it\nclosely follows the close, so the questioner probably wouldn't\nremember them or have noticed them just by casually looking in the\nfirst place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I was the original questioner, and I was aware of the islands in the\nsouth of SA. My question was based on my belief that Severian was\nasserting that the Commonwealth consisted entirely of islands. But\nreexamining the quote, it now seems clear to me that the relevant\nphrase--\"a chain of islands like our south\"--refers to the southern-\nmost portion of the Commonwealth, and not to the Commonwealth as a\nwhole, as I had originally thought. So there's no problem there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Hasn't Wolfe said that Gyoll is the Orinoco? As usual, I can't find\nthe place where I read this. But I looked at an atlas yesterday and\nwas quite surprised. Because if it's true, then the islands in the\nSouth - the direction away from the Equator - would be the West\nIndies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wheww. How's that for a bundle of citations?\n\nI don't remember Wolfe ever saying this, and it doesn't appear\npossible (see below)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Last year Scott Dalrymple wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And, regarding Vodalus's assertion that Urth has flipped on her\naxis, would\nthat matter? To someone like Severian, wouldn't the world appear\nto be the\nsame? He'd still be traveling toward Urth's belly to reach the\ntropical\nregions. After all, North and South, while tied to poles, are\nsomewhat\narbitrary constructs, aren't they? Why couldn't we depict the\nworld with\nthe South Pole on \"top\"? Maybe we've got the whole universe\nupside-down." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Vodalus was talking about the magnetic axis flipping, which has\nhappened often before on Earth.\n\nNorth and south may seem arbitrary, but east and west definitely\naren't. The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Assuming a\nhuman has a head in one direction and feet in the other, it is\npossible to determine which side is left and which right, and they are\ndifferent. But anyway, with a person's left to the west and right to\nthe east, he would be facing north, as happens to Severian (see below)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(I quote Scott because I can't find the original quote ;-)\n\nIt makes sense for the West Indies to be rather colder than nowadays,\nwhile the islands along the coast of South America would surely be\nunder the ice. The West Indies are more of an archipelago, too.\nI think this also explains why the rivers all flow West, when we\nwould expect them to flow East.\n\nIn _Citadel_ Severian is walking North with the sea to the West and\nthe Sun rising on his right. The Sun still rises in the East, I think\n(doesn't Typhon's statue face West, away from the sunrise?) so this\nreally would be the world having turned over, not a magnetic reversal.\nMind you, this is about the one place in the whole book where left\nor right are mentioned explicitly. I would almost rather believe the\nSun rose in the West than trust Severian to know which way was right,\ngiven his total inability to follow directions.\n\nSBear." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As I understand it, the entire geography is like this: the sea level\nis lower because the colder temperature has frozen more water into the\nice caps. There is thus more land. South America is in the general\narea it is now, with a similar distribution of continents. Nessus is\non the west coast, west of the \"Andes\" and perhaps on land that is\ncurrently underwater. The Gyoll flows from it's source in the Andes\nwest to it's mouth on the west coast. East of the Andes is the Amazon\njungle. North in North America is the country of the Ascians. West\nare the Xanthic lands (Asia).\n\nTo explain: in the book it says that to the south are the narrow\nlands and the southern archipelago. This could refer to either what\nis currently north or south, however, it also says that to the north\nis the waist of the world and north of that the Ascians. There is no\nisthmus to what we call the south. Therefore, the directions are the\nsame as we use today. The Ascians live in North America, the waist is\nthe Isthmus of Panama and environs. The narrow lands are the narrow\nsouthern part of South America. Also, the islands may not be the ones\nthere today, but lower ones revealed by the receded ocean. Severian\nalso says that the north is hotter, in some sections of the books.\n\nThe rivers flow west because he's west of the Andes. There's also\nmore land in that area because of the sea level.\n\nI've already discussed how Severian's northward journey helps confirm\nthis.\n\nprion\n_________________________________________________________\nDO YOU YAHOO!?\nGet your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com\n\n\n\n--------------- END urth.v017.n006 ---------------" } ] } ] }