# unsuscribe: Digest urth.v017.n007 *The Urth list — 1 messages, 1 voices, 21 Jul 1998* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Internet Megantic *21 Jul 1998, 20:28* unsuscribe > At 19:19 20-07-98 -0700, you wrote: > > -------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n007 -------------- > > 001 - mary whalen 002 - mary whalen 003 - Internet Megantic 004 - Dan Parmenter 005 - adam louis stephanides 006 - m.driussi at genie.com - (urth) Autarchs are commoners > 007 - mary whalen > URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.1 --------------- > > From: mary whalen > Subject: (urth) Jeannine as abo > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:49:10 -0700 (PDT) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > This is Sean Whalen (prion). > > Yet another piece of evidence that Aunt Jeannine in _The Fith Head of > Cerberus_ is really an abo impostor. > > On page 52 of the Orb edition, No. 5 describes her withered legs as > "like the sticks David and I used as little boys, when doing parlor > magic, we wished Mr. Million to believe us lying prone when we were in > fact crouched beneath our own supposed figures." > > He's comparing her legs to devices used to deceive and make one thing > seem to be another, to conceal. > > prion > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.2 --------------- > > From: mary whalen > Subject: (urth) Lexicon Urthus > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:51:00 -0700 (PDT) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > This is Sean Whalen (prion). > > Concerning the geography discussion, Michael Andre-Driussi's (mantis') > _Lexicon Urthus_ has an excellent map illustrating my points in the > previous post. > > Seeing those carved mountains has reminded me of the question of how > all of them could have been carved in the one to two thousand years > Wolfe said had passed between Typhon and Severian's time. Well, since > the time of the Conciliator to the narration of the books is like the > time of Jesus to the present (between 1000 and 2000 describes the > present) maybe he was being metaphoric when he said that he had always > thought of it as being like between those times, comparing it to what > we have experienced. Or he may have been confused at the time when > thinking about how he intended the metaphorical correlation. > > In the books, the time period is given as "thirty thousand years" by > Agia, and "many chiliads" by Severian. They could be wrong, but this > would be plenty of time for the mountains to be carved, and be in tune > with the action in the book and mantis' timeline. > > prion > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.3 --------------- > > From: Internet Megantic > Subject: unsuscribe > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:53:47 -0400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > unsuscribe > > > > > > At 03:43 20-07-98 -0700, you wrote: >> -------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n006 -------------- >> >> 001 - adam louis stephanides > 002 - adam louis stephanides > 003 - Internet Megantic > 004 - "Alex David Groce" > 005 - "J. Schultz" > 006 - m.driussi at genie.com - (urth) Questions Keep Questing >> 007 - mary whalen > 008 - mary whalen > 009 - Peter Westlake > 010 - mary whalen > >> URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works >> >> >> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.1 --------------- >> >> From: adam louis stephanides >> Subject: Severian and the White Fountain >> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:15:42 -0500 (CDT) >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >> In-Reply-To: <199807142021.NAA29492 at lists1.best.com> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 Christopher R. Culver wrote: >>> Adam asked: >>>> Why is it necessary for anybody to "bring the White Fountain" to Urth? Why >>>> can't the Hierogrammates just send it?< >>> This is, IMHO, rather simple. The Hierogrammates are theological beings who >>> serve the Pancreator. As such, they judge the sentient beings of their area >>> and decide whether those people are deserving of a miracle. >> What I meant to ask was not "Why don't the Hierogrammates distributes >> White Fountains to everybody who need one?" but "Having decided to give >> Urth a White Fountain, why don't they simply send Severian back to Urth, >> assuring him the White Fountain will be along shortly? Why go through >> this routine of having Severian "become" the White Fountain as well, which >> he then "guides" to Urth, or at least believes he does. >>> Also: > >>> >>> Severian mentions on the Ship of Tzadkiel that the Autarch is by right the >>> representative of Urth to the Hierodules, even though he rules a small >>> portion >>> of it. >> True, but Severian's "trial" is not, as he origingally believes, to >> determine his or Urth's moral fitness to receive the New Sun, but to >> determine the likelihood of his successfully bringing the New Sun. So >> it's not obvious why the New Sun needs to be brought by an ex officio >> "representative of Urth." >> >> --Adam >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.2 --------------- >> >> From: adam louis stephanides >> Subject: Il (Peter) Principe >> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:35:59 -0500 (CDT) >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >> In-Reply-To: <199807140634.XAA22362 at lists1.best.com> >> >> >> mantis, >> >> I was away for a few days, or I would have responded to your post earlier. >> I have a few minor cavils, which I'll discuss elsewhere, but I found it >> admirably clear and enlightening. >> >> Unfortunately, it only leaves me more baffled regarding _Urth_ as a whole. >> In fact, it now seems to me that _Urth_ is at least as obscure as >> _Castleview_. To start with, the Hierodules have been supporting the >> "rickety" political structure of the Commonwealth for a thousand years or >> more, apparently solely so that at the end of this time Severian, the >> man destined to bring the New Sun, will be Autarch. This is too >> reminiscent of _The Sirens of Titan_ for my taste. More to the point, it >> makes even more urgent the questions I asked in an earlier post: why must >> an Urthman bring the New Sun, why an Autarch, and why Severian? I'm not >> as confident that the answers I gave are correct as I was then, but I >> haven't seen any better answers. For that matter, I'm doubtful about the >> whole punishment-and-redemption-of-Urth schema: if the "redemption" >> involves wiping out 99.9% of Urth's population, one would think the >> "punishment" could be dispensed with as superfluous. >> >> I'm also baffled by the course of events surrounding Severian's "trial." >> Why is he led to think that his trial will be like his predecessor's? Is >> it just so he will be a more humane ruler as Autarch? But then why isn't >> he told the truth as soon as he leaves Urth? >> >> And what is the function of the battle royal between the sailors and the >> aquastors? Were the Hierogrammates really willing, after all those years >> of preparation, to risk the survival of their race on the outcome of that >> battle? >> >> In short, your post made me realize that so far, the first half of _Urth_ >> doesn't make sense for me. Any help you, or anyone else of course, can >> give me would be most appreciated. (If this post seems querulous, it's a >> reflection of my desperation.) >> >> --Adam >> >> >> >> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.3 --------------- >> >> From: Internet Megantic >> Subject: unsuscribe- Digest urth.v017.n005 >> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:32:19 -0400 >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> At 21:10 18-07-98 -0700, you wrote: >>> -------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n005 -------------- >>> >>> 001 - "William H. Ansley" >> 002 - "Robert Borski" >> 003 - "Alice Turner" >> 004 - Derek Bell >> 005 - raster at highfiber.com (Cha - Re: Claudius >>> >>> URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works >>> >>> >>> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.1 --------------- >>> >>> From: "William H. Ansley" >>> Subject: Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Space >>> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:50:38 -0400 >>> MIME-Version: 1.0 >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>> In-Reply-To: <199807180216.TAA14355 at lists1.best.com> >>>> One of the more puzzling names in THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS to be sourced >>>> is the Country of Friends. It's cited by the abos as the possible homeport >>>> of the star-faring Homo sapiens pangalacticus, who've traveled to Saint >>>> Anne in the distant past, and mentioned in the same breath as Atlantis and >>>> Gondwanaland. >>>> >>>> I'm now speculating it relates to the Aztecs. >>>> >>>> This is because Texas--where Gene Wolfe grew up--is derived from the Indian >>>> word "texia," meaning "friends." And since Texas was once part of Mexico, >>>> it's possible the Country of Friends generally refers to Aztecan >>>> civilization. >>> I like this too. >>> >>> I have a nagging idea that the phrase "the Country of Friends" occurs >>> elsewhere in Wolfe and I have seen it recently in my rereading. If I find >>> the reference, I will certainly post. >>> >>> William Ansley >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.2 --------------- >>> >>> From: "Robert Borski" >>> Subject: Sanderson's Abandonment >>> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:26:00 -0500 >>> MIME-Version: 1.0 >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> >>> Earlier, in regards to my Continuing Westward post, Sean Whalen (aka prion) >>> wrote: >>> >>> "This seems to fit, but how does it fit in that he originally thought >>> that she stabbed Sanderson? He didn't just decide to leave him, he >>> thought that he was dead." >>> >>> This may relate to some aspect of a Kipling short story (The Phantom >>> Rickshaw?), but I'm not sure--it's been 30+ years since I read SOLDIERS >>> THREE and the other collections. Or it may be simple irony. Paris, the >>> Great Seducer, undone by his own lust (whereas the Paris of legend stakes a >>> claim to the most beautiful woman in the world and precipitates a war). >>> >>> Of course, all of the Homeric correspondences are rather loosely clumped >>> together--hence the notion of Greek Odysseus and Trojan Paris as >>> shipmates--so the search for parallels my be intriniscally flawed to begin >>> with, at least if we expect 100% fidelity with the Illiad/Odyssey. >>> >>> Also, what I forgot to mention in my Cherry Jubilee piece is that KGB agent >>> Vera Oussenko, who, as you mention, is arrested, represents truth, which >>> she is seeking, even though she gets it wrong (Vera = veritas), only in the >>> inverted value system of CJ she's "punished"--not being allowed to >>> disembark, she's spared the hell of Mars. >>> >>> Robert Borski >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.3 --------------- >>> >>> From: "Alice Turner" >>> Subject: Re: Digest urth.v017.n004 >>> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:16:27 -0400 >>> MIME-Version: 1.0 >>> Content-Type: text/plain; >>> charset="iso-8859-1" >>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>> Don't know if this has been brought up before, but if Owen/Ouen is >>>> considered to be the Welsh/Celtic equivalent of Eugene, doesn't that mean >>>> Sev's father might also be called Gene? >>> From the Oxford book of English Christian names: >>> >>> OWEN: a common Welsh name; in Middle English romances often spelled Owain, >>> Owayne, Ywain. It has been supposed to be derived from Latin Eugenius...see >>> Ewan. (Ouen) >>> >>> EWEN: this name, now confined to Scotland, was once common in England...It >>> is probably the same as Irish and Gaelic Eoghan 'a youth,' which is frequent >>> in Celtic legend and history. Eoghan is usually derived from Primitive >>> Celtic Eugenius 'well-born,' from which is derived Old Welsh Euguein which >>> later became Middle Welsh Ewein, Ywein, whence modern Welsh Owain, Owen. >>> >>> Bravo, scolex. Thank you. >>> >>> -alga- >>> >>> >>> >>> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.4 --------------- >>> >>> From: Derek Bell >>> Subject: Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Space >>> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:22:08 +0100 >>> MIME-Version: 1.0 >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>> In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:50:38 EDT." >>> <199807180352.UAA19972 at lists1.best.com> >>> >>> In message <199807180352.UAA19972 at lists1.best.com>, "William H. Ansley" > writes: >>>> I have a nagging idea that the phrase "the Country of Friends" occurs >>>> elsewhere in Wolfe and I have seen it recently in my rereading. If I find >>>> the reference, I will certainly post. >>> I think it's in the short story _Feather Tigers_, IIRC. It >>> occurs in the dialog between the main protagonist and the sky(space?) >>> yacht. >>> >>> Derek >>> >>> >>> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.5 --------------- >>> >>> From: raster at highfiber.com (Charles Dye) >>> Subject: Re: Claudius >>> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:36:57 -0600 (MDT) >>> MIME-Version: 1.0 >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>> >>> CRCulver at aol.com writes: >>>> Alex: >>>> < Has there been any discussion on the list (sorry, I'm new and haven't had >>>> time to exhaustively browse the archives) of similarities between >>>> Severian and >>>> Claudius, both the historical emperor and the charming narrator of the two >>>> Robert Graves novels?> >>>> The point that comes to mind first is that both Claudius and Severian >>>> plan to >>>> write a manuscript they believe no one will read and get rid of it in a lead >>>> coffer. >>> The dead giveaway, for me anyhow, was the scene where Severian produces one >>> of 'his' aes in the era of Typhon: >>> >>> He examined it, bit it, and gave it back to me. "Gold all right. >>> Looks a trifle like you, 'cept he seems to have got himself cut up. >>> Don't suppose you noticed." >>> >>> "No," I said. "I never thought of it." >>> >>> Hadelin nodded and pushed back his chair. "A man doesn't shave himself >>> sidewise. See you in the morning, sieur, madame." >>> >>> Compare with a scene from "Claudius the God" chapter 6 : >>> >>> It pleased my vanity to have my head on the coins.... Portraits on >>> coins, however, are always disappointing because they are executed in >>> profile, and it comes as a shock, when one sees it in a portrait, that >>> one really looks like that to people standing beside one. For one's >>> full face, because of the familiarity that mirrors give it, a certain >>> toleration and even affection is felt; but I must say that when I first >>> saw the model that the mint-masters were striking for me I grew angry >>> and asked whether it was intended to be a caricature. >>> >>> Robert Graves once did a translation of "The Lives of the Twelve Caesars" >>> in which each Emperor's chapter was illustrated with the appropriate aureus. >>> >>> raster at highfiber.com >>> >>> >>> >>> --------------- END urth.v017.n005 --------------- >>> >>> >>> *More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/ >> /Serges >> Internet Megantic >> http://www.megantic.net/ >> >> >> >> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.4 --------------- >> >> From: "Alex David Groce" >> Subject: Eleanor Bold >> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:57:36 -0400 >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> I've often wondered if the name "Eleanor Bold" in PEACE is simply a >> coincidence, or is intended to mean something. I've seen Wolfe refer to >> Trollope before, particularly in an essay or interview when he was discussing >> the value to a writer of having a job other than writing (I think this is in >> CASTLE OF DAYS). So, it seems reasonable to assume Wolfe's read BARCHESTER >> TOWERS, and possibly all of the Barchester books, and it is an intentional >> effect. But what exactly is it supposed to suggest? Any ideas? >> >> -- >> "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." - John 8:32 >> -- >> Alex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu) >> Senior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction) >> '98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President >> 608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366 >> http://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce >> >> >> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.5 --------------- >> >> From: "J. Schultz" >> Subject: Autarch >> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:42:38 -0400 >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >> It takes me a while to get around to reading all my mail. This is in >> response to the difference between Autarch and Monarch. As we have all >> figured by now Autarch means one who rules themselves. This idea works into >> one of the themes I see present in the first set of books (tBotNS). At each >> step in Severian's development we see him cast off the power of one >> authority after another. He breaks his ties from the authority of the >> guild, the Archon and his post as Lictor, Typhon, etc. It all leads up to >> the point where just before the Lake people attack the castle of Baldanders, >> when Severian says (to paraphrase) I began to follow the Increate's >> authority above all others. Severian has become his own man, as it were. >> He decides for himself what is right and wrong, moral and evil, with a >> personal relationship with God. Thus I feel that the title "Autarch" is >> symbolic of this change and that the title has more thematic meaning, rather >> than any real practical meaning in the way of legal proceedure. A rose is a >> rose is a rose. Or, it doesn't really matter what you call him, the idea is >> that he is the top dog and no one is higher, the one man who rules himself. >> As we find out, however, the Autarch is the subject of the Hierodules and >> other higher powers (at least in some sense of the word). We can't forget >> that the message of tBotNS is basically spiritual and religious, whether we >> like it or not. In my mind it is the redemption of a torturer who is lost >> in an immoral and decaying world. >> >> As far as what would have happened had Appian let Severian enter Yesod, he >> most likely would have failed having not learned the important lessons that >> were to come. However, He would have EATEN Appian's brains AT THAT TIME. >> Appian even says, "Gee, sorry I'm so shocked but I thought I had more time." >> Which leads me to believe that Appian knows that Sev will take the throne >> and he knows that to take the throne he (Appian) has to be dead. I would >> balk too if my replacement walked in the door and said, "Well, I'm ready, >> take me to the garden and get your brains ready." While Sev doesn't say >> this it is percieved this way by Appian. >> >> Let me say that the story has already faded in my mind and mingled with half >> ideas, my own experiences, and the way I would like it to be. (as I'm sure >> happens to us all) >> >> One timeless question (FunkMonkey steps in line behind hundreds of >> philosophers, ancient to modern) How much free will does Severian have? >> When does Tra. KNOW Severain has passed. Have they engineered him from the >> begining and so no test is needed? He has some power from the White >> Fountain long before heading into space, as Sev himself says, 'as if the >> presentment of his future came back through time to him.' Assuming he >> raised Triskle from the dead he has had his 'powers' from the begining. >> Everyone on Urth in Sev's time knows of the Concilliator. The Concilliator >> is Sev returning triumphant. Thus Severian has already suceeded before he >> begun! Or has he? Time travel always throws me through a logic loop. Like >> asking the question "If I went back in time and killed my past self, who >> would grow up to kill me?" Any thoughts? This could be and endless >> discussion. >> >> FunkMonkey >> with the logical MonkeyWrench >> >> J. Schutlz >> jschultz at wcnet.org >> >> >> >> >> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.6 --------------- >> >> From: m.driussi at genie.com >> Subject: (urth) Questions Keep Questing >> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 04:11:00 GMT >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >> Adam, >> >> FWIW I didn't take your post in a querulous mode. And I'm glad that >> something I wrote seemed clear and enlightening, but of course I was >> only shooting in the dark and I can't hope to hit a homer every time, >> even if it is a room full of ancient Greek poets who are blind, just >> to mix metaphors (and this one is for raster--don't think I didn't >> laugh on that homer quip). >> >> I'm comfortable with the paradoxes I hold in suspension on this one. >> If I can continue to explain what I see, maybe you can see it even if >> you don't particularly believe it. >> >> The Peter Principle is about the triumph of mediocrity, I think. >> >> Il Principe is Machiavelli's work about amoral statecraft. >> >> Peter Wright's papers on the "Fictions of the New Sun" provide a >> Machiavellian reading (which, in turn, makes Severian's narrative >> much closer to Herbert's DUNE series than Tolkien's LOTR). >> >> "Sirens of Titan" is another good touchstone and I'm glad you brought >> it up. This is the "sarcastic" or "cosmic joke" answer to the Big >> Question, and I think we can all agree that it isn't an >> overwhelmingly fitting solution to the Briah/Yesod situation. >> >> Some of your questions can be answered: The situation facing Severian >> rides a tightrope between free-will and pre-destination. >> >> This by itself is a huge topic. Philosophy, physics, metaphysics, >> etc. >> >> In practical terms, we rejoice that Severian took the brown book, >> rather than Canog's Book of the New Sun, because this "opens the >> loop" and makes the oracular power of the tales work their magic on >> Severian, which then helps him behave in a certain way, which is then >> faithfully recorded as Canog's Book of the New Sun. If Severian had >> taken Canog's, it would have been a closed loop "blueprint"; Severian >> would have been reduced to being a robot--and maybe would have >> resisted doing it, and the whole thing would collapse. >> >> Likewise, nobody with any authority and/or knowledge could ever "tell >> Severian the truth" or "what to do" or anything like that. For the >> same reason. They tell him just enough and just in time. He has to >> be guided to the right decision, but he cannot be simply told, nor >> forced to do something. >> >> Maybe we could liken it to developing a photograph: it is done in the >> dark, by mysterious rituals and formula, but there is a goal in mind >> and it begins to materialize until finally it is done and we can turn >> on the light and see it clearly. >> >> As for why does Yesod care. Well, one model is that Briah and Yesod >> are two halves of the same creature--one is male and one is female, >> to use the crudest analogy. They must have an exchange of >> information to ensure their own future survival: Urth gets a New Sun, >> and Yesod gets the next stage closer to Hieros . . . who will then >> make hierogrammates. It all is a reproductive rite; as if homo >> sapiens were to guide australopithecus toward becoming homo erectus, >> so that homo erectus would give way to homo sapiens. >> >> Which brings us to another dicotomy: the breaking of the human >> experience into Pure Order and the wild things. Cyriaca's tale of >> posthistory tells us that the First Empire was founded upon the one >> (Order) and brought down by the rejected other (non-order). The >> implication being (I think) that there should be a balance, within >> the individual and within the culture. >> >> Not to be "zen" about it, nor too smug, but questions about the very >> mysterious first half of URTH should not be focused entirely in the >> "logical" or "rational" mode. If Order leads to brick walls of >> confusion, see if Non-order can lead to a doorway. If "modern >> science" can't answer, try "cave painting poetry" instead. >> >> If you haven't already, you really should read Wright's essays. You >> might find that they fit you like a tee. >> >> =mantis= >> >> >> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.7 --------------- >> >> From: mary whalen >> Subject: (urth) David as Maitre 2 >> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:39:50 -0700 (PDT) >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> This is Sean Whalen (prion). >> >> I think that in _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_ the junior officer who >> reviews VRT's case is actually David. First, David is known to have >> gone to the capital after his father's death, presumably to follow his >> love of political power. Plenty of time has passed since the murder >> and VRT's arrest for him to have attained such a position and to have >> held it for a fairly significant amount of time. Also, he is called a >> junior officer and the other officer he meets is called a brother >> officer. This is an allusion to the fact that David is younger than >> his "brother" No. 5. The other person the j.o. is mentioned in this >> story to be younger than is his slave, who is probably one of the >> clones or altered clones of Maitre. This seems to be plenty, in a >> Wolfe book, to link him to David. More, he is only addressed as >> Maitre, just like his father was, continuing the chain of linkage. >> The other officer also says that he always was a night owl, which is >> similar to the way that David and No. 5 stayed up when they were young >> in FHC. Also, when he hits the slave, it is like a reversal of when >> No. 5 accidently stabbed him when he was fighting the other clone of >> Maitre with four arms. >> >> prion >> _________________________________________________________ >> DO YOU YAHOO!? >> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >> >> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.8 --------------- >> >> From: mary whalen >> Subject: (urth) Fifth Head miscellaney >> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:05:28 -0700 (PDT) >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> This is Sean Whalen (prion). >> >> I just wanted to put down a few minor miscellaneous points I have in >> my mind about _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_. >> >> Today I saw a show about Neanderthals. It seems that their >> flintworkers could make a blade that is the sharpest known to man, as >> could the later humans. The discusser said that it is even sharper >> than a modern surgeon's scalpel. Marsch talks about how flint can be >> chipped with little dexterity when he talks to RT speculating about >> how he could make the implements he sells as Annese with his arthritic >> hands. VRT probably used flint to cut out the first pages of Marsch's >> diary, which are said in the story to have been cut out with an >> instrument sharper than a scalpel. >> >> VRT may have bought the brass circumciser to use on himself, so that >> he would not be discovered to be impersonating Marsch if his books >> were found. Did he ever get to use it? I don't know if anyone in >> authority ever saw him naked, and he asked not to be strip-searched by >> the men who arrest him. >> >> Isn't it possible that VRT didn't kill Marsch, but that he was killed >> by the tire-tiger? In the journal, written by VRT, it says that >> Marsch was attacked by the waiting tiger when he came down from the >> tree, and that he should have been mauled but was absurdly lucky, and >> was only knocked back into a thorn bush. It seems to me that the >> tiger actually killed Marsch, and that VRT wrote that Marsch survived >> so that he could take his place. Otherwise, there's no reason to >> include this passage at all, as it seems ridiculous that Marsch could >> actually save himself if the tiger attacked as he came down the tree. >> >> Again, I wonder if VRT actually killed the cat-girl or just wrote that >> so that he wouldn't have to write about her interactions with Marsch, >> which would have been very different from the interactions he had with >> her, and too difficult for him to make up. When he begins to write in >> the journal, he also talks about "we" a lot, apparently about him and >> the mules, but perhaps not. >> >> I don't think that I believe Robert Borski's idea that RT is actually >> an abo himself. It seems odd that his wife and son have green eyes >> when he doesn't. VRT thinks he's a human, he says that what happens >> to his hands will keep him from his profession, implying that he had >> tool-using hands before. He can operate the buttons that his wife >> can't. >> >> Also, I believe that there was some discussion about what VRT and >> Maitre believe about Jeannine's genetic relations when VRT says that >> she is the daughter of "shall we say an earlier 'version'" of No. 5. >> It seems possible that he meant a version as the parent of the Gene >> Wolfe genome, rather than an earlier person in the line of clones. >> However, in jail VRT says that Jeannine is genetically Gene's >> daughter. At that time, remember, VRT didn't know that No. 5 knew he >> was a clone, and was thus just being subtle. >> >> prion >> _________________________________________________________ >> DO YOU YAHOO!? >> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >> >> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.9 --------------- >> >> From: Peter Westlake >> Subject: Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth >> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:23:52 +0100 >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> References: <199807022151.OAA05425 at lists1.best.com> >> In-Reply-To: <199807051857.LAA20487 at lists1.best.com> >> >> At 13:57 1998-07-05 -0500, Adam wrote: >>> prion wrote: >>>> A previous letter to the list (I'm sorry but I don't remember when) >>>> asked how the Commonwealth could be in a South America geographically >>>> similar to the current continent when the Commonwealth is described as >>>> consisting of an archipelago of islands to the south. The answer is >>>> that SA does have a long chain of many islands in the south, but it >>>> closely follows the close, so the questioner probably wouldn't >>>> remember them or have noticed them just by casually looking in the >>>> first place. >>> I was the original questioner, and I was aware of the islands in the >>> south of SA. My question was based on my belief that Severian was >>> asserting that the Commonwealth consisted entirely of islands. But >>> reexamining the quote, it now seems clear to me that the relevant >>> phrase--"a chain of islands like our south"--refers to the southern- >>> most portion of the Commonwealth, and not to the Commonwealth as a >>> whole, as I had originally thought. So there's no problem there. >> Hasn't Wolfe said that Gyoll is the Orinoco? As usual, I can't find >> the place where I read this. But I looked at an atlas yesterday and >> was quite surprised. Because if it's true, then the islands in the >> South - the direction away from the Equator - would be the West Indies. >> Last year Scott Dalrymple wrote: >>> And, regarding Vodalus's assertion that Urth has flipped on her axis, would >>> that matter? To someone like Severian, wouldn't the world appear to be the >>> same? He'd still be traveling toward Urth's belly to reach the tropical >>> regions. After all, North and South, while tied to poles, are somewhat >>> arbitrary constructs, aren't they? Why couldn't we depict the world with >>> the South Pole on "top"? Maybe we've got the whole universe upside-down. >> (I quote Scott because I can't find the original quote ;-) >> >> It makes sense for the West Indies to be rather colder than nowadays, >> while the islands along the coast of South America would surely be >> under the ice. The West Indies are more of an archipelago, too. >> I think this also explains why the rivers all flow West, when we >> would expect them to flow East. >> >> In _Citadel_ Severian is walking North with the sea to the West and >> the Sun rising on his right. The Sun still rises in the East, I think >> (doesn't Typhon's statue face West, away from the sunrise?) so this >> really would be the world having turned over, not a magnetic reversal. >> Mind you, this is about the one place in the whole book where left >> or right are mentioned explicitly. I would almost rather believe the >> Sun rose in the West than trust Severian to know which way was right, >> given his total inability to follow directions. >> >> SBear. >> >> >> >> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.10 --------------- >> >> From: mary whalen >> Subject: Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth >> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:35:52 -0700 (PDT) >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> This is Sean Whalen (prion). >> >> ---Peter Westlake wrote: >>> At 13:57 1998-07-05 -0500, Adam wrote: >>>> prion wrote: >>>>> A previous letter to the list (I'm sorry but I don't remember when) >>>>> asked how the Commonwealth could be in a South America >>>>> geographically >>>>> similar to the current continent when the Commonwealth is >>>>> described as >>>>> consisting of an archipelago of islands to the south. The answer >>>>> is >>>>> that SA does have a long chain of many islands in the south, but it >>>>> closely follows the close, so the questioner probably wouldn't >>>>> remember them or have noticed them just by casually looking in the >>>>> first place. >>>> I was the original questioner, and I was aware of the islands in the >>>> south of SA. My question was based on my belief that Severian was >>>> asserting that the Commonwealth consisted entirely of islands. But >>>> reexamining the quote, it now seems clear to me that the relevant >>>> phrase--"a chain of islands like our south"--refers to the southern- >>>> most portion of the Commonwealth, and not to the Commonwealth as a >>>> whole, as I had originally thought. So there's no problem there. >>> Hasn't Wolfe said that Gyoll is the Orinoco? As usual, I can't find >>> the place where I read this. But I looked at an atlas yesterday and >>> was quite surprised. Because if it's true, then the islands in the >>> South - the direction away from the Equator - would be the West >>> Indies. >> Wheww. How's that for a bundle of citations? >> >> I don't remember Wolfe ever saying this, and it doesn't appear >> possible (see below). >>> Last year Scott Dalrymple wrote: >>>> And, regarding Vodalus's assertion that Urth has flipped on her >>>> axis, would >>>> that matter? To someone like Severian, wouldn't the world appear >>>> to be the >>>> same? He'd still be traveling toward Urth's belly to reach the >>>> tropical >>>> regions. After all, North and South, while tied to poles, are >>>> somewhat >>>> arbitrary constructs, aren't they? Why couldn't we depict the >>>> world with >>>> the South Pole on "top"? Maybe we've got the whole universe >>>> upside-down. >> Vodalus was talking about the magnetic axis flipping, which has >> happened often before on Earth. >> >> North and south may seem arbitrary, but east and west definitely >> aren't. The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Assuming a >> human has a head in one direction and feet in the other, it is >> possible to determine which side is left and which right, and they are >> different. But anyway, with a person's left to the west and right to >> the east, he would be facing north, as happens to Severian (see below). >>> (I quote Scott because I can't find the original quote ;-) >>> >>> It makes sense for the West Indies to be rather colder than nowadays, >>> while the islands along the coast of South America would surely be >>> under the ice. The West Indies are more of an archipelago, too. >>> I think this also explains why the rivers all flow West, when we >>> would expect them to flow East. >>> >>> In _Citadel_ Severian is walking North with the sea to the West and >>> the Sun rising on his right. The Sun still rises in the East, I think >>> (doesn't Typhon's statue face West, away from the sunrise?) so this >>> really would be the world having turned over, not a magnetic reversal. >>> Mind you, this is about the one place in the whole book where left >>> or right are mentioned explicitly. I would almost rather believe the >>> Sun rose in the West than trust Severian to know which way was right, >>> given his total inability to follow directions. >>> >>> SBear. >> As I understand it, the entire geography is like this: the sea level >> is lower because the colder temperature has frozen more water into the >> ice caps. There is thus more land. South America is in the general >> area it is now, with a similar distribution of continents. Nessus is >> on the west coast, west of the "Andes" and perhaps on land that is >> currently underwater. The Gyoll flows from it's source in the Andes >> west to it's mouth on the west coast. East of the Andes is the Amazon >> jungle. North in North America is the country of the Ascians. West >> are the Xanthic lands (Asia). >> >> To explain: in the book it says that to the south are the narrow >> lands and the southern archipelago. This could refer to either what >> is currently north or south, however, it also says that to the north >> is the waist of the world and north of that the Ascians. There is no >> isthmus to what we call the south. Therefore, the directions are the >> same as we use today. The Ascians live in North America, the waist is >> the Isthmus of Panama and environs. The narrow lands are the narrow >> southern part of South America. Also, the islands may not be the ones >> there today, but lower ones revealed by the receded ocean. Severian >> also says that the north is hotter, in some sections of the books. >> >> The rivers flow west because he's west of the Andes. There's also >> more land in that area because of the sea level. >> >> I've already discussed how Severian's northward journey helps confirm >> this. >> >> prion >> _________________________________________________________ >> DO YOU YAHOO!? >> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >> >> --------------- END urth.v017.n006 --------------- ---