unsuscribe: Digest urth.v017.n007 The Urth list — 1 messages, 1 voices, 21 Jul 1998 https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1025 Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. ============================================================================== Internet Megantic — 21 Jul 1998, 20:28 unsuscribe > At 19:19 20-07-98 -0700, you wrote: > > -------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n007 -------------- > > 001 - mary whalen 002 - mary whalen 003 - Internet Megantic 004 - Dan Parmenter 005 - adam louis stephanides 006 - m.driussi at genie.com - (urth) Autarchs are commoners > 007 - mary whalen > URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.1 --------------- > > From: mary whalen > Subject: (urth) Jeannine as abo > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:49:10 -0700 (PDT) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > This is Sean Whalen (prion). > > Yet another piece of evidence that Aunt Jeannine in _The Fith Head of > Cerberus_ is really an abo impostor. > > On page 52 of the Orb edition, No. 5 describes her withered legs as > "like the sticks David and I used as little boys, when doing parlor > magic, we wished Mr. Million to believe us lying prone when we were in > fact crouched beneath our own supposed figures." > > He's comparing her legs to devices used to deceive and make one thing > seem to be another, to conceal. > > prion > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.2 --------------- > > From: mary whalen > Subject: (urth) Lexicon Urthus > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:51:00 -0700 (PDT) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > This is Sean Whalen (prion). > > Concerning the geography discussion, Michael Andre-Driussi's (mantis') > _Lexicon Urthus_ has an excellent map illustrating my points in the > previous post. > > Seeing those carved mountains has reminded me of the question of how > all of them could have been carved in the one to two thousand years > Wolfe said had passed between Typhon and Severian's time. Well, since > the time of the Conciliator to the narration of the books is like the > time of Jesus to the present (between 1000 and 2000 describes the > present) maybe he was being metaphoric when he said that he had always > thought of it as being like between those times, comparing it to what > we have experienced. Or he may have been confused at the time when > thinking about how he intended the metaphorical correlation. > > In the books, the time period is given as "thirty thousand years" by > Agia, and "many chiliads" by Severian. They could be wrong, but this > would be plenty of time for the mountains to be carved, and be in tune > with the action in the book and mantis' timeline. > > prion > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.3 --------------- > > From: Internet Megantic > Subject: unsuscribe > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:53:47 -0400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > unsuscribe > > > > > > At 03:43 20-07-98 -0700, you wrote: > > -------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n006 -------------- > > > > 001 - adam louis stephanides > 002 - adam louis stephanides > 003 - Internet Megantic > 004 - "Alex David Groce" > 005 - "J. Schultz" > 006 - m.driussi at genie.com - (urth) Questions Keep Questing > > 007 - mary whalen > 008 - mary whalen > 009 - Peter Westlake > 010 - mary whalen > > > URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works > > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.1 --------------- > > > > From: adam louis stephanides > > Subject: Severian and the White Fountain > > Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:15:42 -0500 (CDT) > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > In-Reply-To: <199807142021.NAA29492 at lists1.best.com> > > > > > > > > On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 Christopher R. Culver wrote: > > > Adam asked: > > > > Why is it necessary for anybody to "bring the White Fountain" to Urth? Why > > > > can't the Hierogrammates just send it?< > > > This is, IMHO, rather simple. The Hierogrammates are theological beings who > > > serve the Pancreator. As such, they judge the sentient beings of their area > > > and decide whether those people are deserving of a miracle. > > What I meant to ask was not "Why don't the Hierogrammates distributes > > White Fountains to everybody who need one?" but "Having decided to give > > Urth a White Fountain, why don't they simply send Severian back to Urth, > > assuring him the White Fountain will be along shortly? Why go through > > this routine of having Severian "become" the White Fountain as well, which > > he then "guides" to Urth, or at least believes he does. > > > Also: > > > > > > > Severian mentions on the Ship of Tzadkiel that the Autarch is by right the > > > representative of Urth to the Hierodules, even though he rules a small > > > portion > > > of it. > > True, but Severian's "trial" is not, as he origingally believes, to > > determine his or Urth's moral fitness to receive the New Sun, but to > > determine the likelihood of his successfully bringing the New Sun. So > > it's not obvious why the New Sun needs to be brought by an ex officio > > "representative of Urth." > > > > --Adam > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.2 --------------- > > > > From: adam louis stephanides > > Subject: Il (Peter) Principe > > Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:35:59 -0500 (CDT) > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > In-Reply-To: <199807140634.XAA22362 at lists1.best.com> > > > > > > mantis, > > > > I was away for a few days, or I would have responded to your post earlier. > > I have a few minor cavils, which I'll discuss elsewhere, but I found it > > admirably clear and enlightening. > > > > Unfortunately, it only leaves me more baffled regarding _Urth_ as a whole. > > In fact, it now seems to me that _Urth_ is at least as obscure as > > _Castleview_. To start with, the Hierodules have been supporting the > > "rickety" political structure of the Commonwealth for a thousand years or > > more, apparently solely so that at the end of this time Severian, the > > man destined to bring the New Sun, will be Autarch. This is too > > reminiscent of _The Sirens of Titan_ for my taste. More to the point, it > > makes even more urgent the questions I asked in an earlier post: why must > > an Urthman bring the New Sun, why an Autarch, and why Severian? I'm not > > as confident that the answers I gave are correct as I was then, but I > > haven't seen any better answers. For that matter, I'm doubtful about the > > whole punishment-and-redemption-of-Urth schema: if the "redemption" > > involves wiping out 99.9% of Urth's population, one would think the > > "punishment" could be dispensed with as superfluous. > > > > I'm also baffled by the course of events surrounding Severian's "trial." > > Why is he led to think that his trial will be like his predecessor's? Is > > it just so he will be a more humane ruler as Autarch? But then why isn't > > he told the truth as soon as he leaves Urth? > > > > And what is the function of the battle royal between the sailors and the > > aquastors? Were the Hierogrammates really willing, after all those years > > of preparation, to risk the survival of their race on the outcome of that > > battle? > > > > In short, your post made me realize that so far, the first half of _Urth_ > > doesn't make sense for me. Any help you, or anyone else of course, can > > give me would be most appreciated. (If this post seems querulous, it's a > > reflection of my desperation.) > > > > --Adam > > > > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.3 --------------- > > > > From: Internet Megantic > > Subject: unsuscribe- Digest urth.v017.n005 > > Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:32:19 -0400 > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > At 21:10 18-07-98 -0700, you wrote: > > > -------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n005 -------------- > > > > > > 001 - "William H. Ansley" > > 002 - "Robert Borski" > > 003 - "Alice Turner" > > 004 - Derek Bell > > 005 - raster at highfiber.com (Cha - Re: Claudius > > > > > > URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works > > > > > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.1 --------------- > > > > > > From: "William H. Ansley" > > > Subject: Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Space > > > Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:50:38 -0400 > > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > In-Reply-To: <199807180216.TAA14355 at lists1.best.com> > > > > One of the more puzzling names in THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS to be sourced > > > > is the Country of Friends. It's cited by the abos as the possible homeport > > > > of the star-faring Homo sapiens pangalacticus, who've traveled to Saint > > > > Anne in the distant past, and mentioned in the same breath as Atlantis and > > > > Gondwanaland. > > > > > > > > I'm now speculating it relates to the Aztecs. > > > > > > > > This is because Texas--where Gene Wolfe grew up--is derived from the Indian > > > > word "texia," meaning "friends." And since Texas was once part of Mexico, > > > > it's possible the Country of Friends generally refers to Aztecan > > > > civilization. > > > I like this too. > > > > > > I have a nagging idea that the phrase "the Country of Friends" occurs > > > elsewhere in Wolfe and I have seen it recently in my rereading. If I find > > > the reference, I will certainly post. > > > > > > William Ansley > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.2 --------------- > > > > > > From: "Robert Borski" > > > Subject: Sanderson's Abandonment > > > Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:26:00 -0500 > > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > > Earlier, in regards to my Continuing Westward post, Sean Whalen (aka prion) > > > wrote: > > > > > > "This seems to fit, but how does it fit in that he originally thought > > > that she stabbed Sanderson? He didn't just decide to leave him, he > > > thought that he was dead." > > > > > > This may relate to some aspect of a Kipling short story (The Phantom > > > Rickshaw?), but I'm not sure--it's been 30+ years since I read SOLDIERS > > > THREE and the other collections. Or it may be simple irony. Paris, the > > > Great Seducer, undone by his own lust (whereas the Paris of legend stakes a > > > claim to the most beautiful woman in the world and precipitates a war). > > > > > > Of course, all of the Homeric correspondences are rather loosely clumped > > > together--hence the notion of Greek Odysseus and Trojan Paris as > > > shipmates--so the search for parallels my be intriniscally flawed to begin > > > with, at least if we expect 100% fidelity with the Illiad/Odyssey. > > > > > > Also, what I forgot to mention in my Cherry Jubilee piece is that KGB agent > > > Vera Oussenko, who, as you mention, is arrested, represents truth, which > > > she is seeking, even though she gets it wrong (Vera = veritas), only in the > > > inverted value system of CJ she's "punished"--not being allowed to > > > disembark, she's spared the hell of Mars. > > > > > > Robert Borski > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.3 --------------- > > > > > > From: "Alice Turner" > > > Subject: Re: Digest urth.v017.n004 > > > Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:16:27 -0400 > > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > Content-Type: text/plain; > > > charset="iso-8859-1" > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > Don't know if this has been brought up before, but if Owen/Ouen is > > > > considered to be the Welsh/Celtic equivalent of Eugene, doesn't that mean > > > > Sev's father might also be called Gene? > > > From the Oxford book of English Christian names: > > > > > > OWEN: a common Welsh name; in Middle English romances often spelled Owain, > > > Owayne, Ywain. It has been supposed to be derived from Latin Eugenius...see > > > Ewan. (Ouen) > > > > > > EWEN: this name, now confined to Scotland, was once common in England...It > > > is probably the same as Irish and Gaelic Eoghan 'a youth,' which is frequent > > > in Celtic legend and history. Eoghan is usually derived from Primitive > > > Celtic Eugenius 'well-born,' from which is derived Old Welsh Euguein which > > > later became Middle Welsh Ewein, Ywein, whence modern Welsh Owain, Owen. > > > > > > Bravo, scolex. Thank you. > > > > > > -alga- > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.4 --------------- > > > > > > From: Derek Bell > > > Subject: Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Space > > > Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:22:08 +0100 > > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:50:38 EDT." > > > <199807180352.UAA19972 at lists1.best.com> > > > > > > In message <199807180352.UAA19972 at lists1.best.com>, "William H. Ansley" > writes: > > > > I have a nagging idea that the phrase "the Country of Friends" occurs > > > > elsewhere in Wolfe and I have seen it recently in my rereading. If I find > > > > the reference, I will certainly post. > > > I think it's in the short story _Feather Tigers_, IIRC. It > > > occurs in the dialog between the main protagonist and the sky(space?) > > > yacht. > > > > > > Derek > > > > > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.5 --------------- > > > > > > From: raster at highfiber.com (Charles Dye) > > > Subject: Re: Claudius > > > Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:36:57 -0600 (MDT) > > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > CRCulver at aol.com writes: > > > > Alex: > > > > < Has there been any discussion on the list (sorry, I'm new and haven't had > > > > time to exhaustively browse the archives) of similarities between > > > > Severian and > > > > Claudius, both the historical emperor and the charming narrator of the two > > > > Robert Graves novels?> > > > > The point that comes to mind first is that both Claudius and Severian > > > > plan to > > > > write a manuscript they believe no one will read and get rid of it in a lead > > > > coffer. > > > The dead giveaway, for me anyhow, was the scene where Severian produces one > > > of 'his' aes in the era of Typhon: > > > > > > He examined it, bit it, and gave it back to me. "Gold all right. > > > Looks a trifle like you, 'cept he seems to have got himself cut up. > > > Don't suppose you noticed." > > > > > > "No," I said. "I never thought of it." > > > > > > Hadelin nodded and pushed back his chair. "A man doesn't shave himself > > > sidewise. See you in the morning, sieur, madame." > > > > > > Compare with a scene from "Claudius the God" chapter 6 : > > > > > > It pleased my vanity to have my head on the coins.... Portraits on > > > coins, however, are always disappointing because they are executed in > > > profile, and it comes as a shock, when one sees it in a portrait, that > > > one really looks like that to people standing beside one. For one's > > > full face, because of the familiarity that mirrors give it, a certain > > > toleration and even affection is felt; but I must say that when I first > > > saw the model that the mint-masters were striking for me I grew angry > > > and asked whether it was intended to be a caricature. > > > > > > Robert Graves once did a translation of "The Lives of the Twelve Caesars" > > > in which each Emperor's chapter was illustrated with the appropriate aureus. > > > > > > raster at highfiber.com > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------- END urth.v017.n005 --------------- > > > > > > > > > *More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/ > > /Serges > > Internet Megantic > > http://www.megantic.net/ > > > > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.4 --------------- > > > > From: "Alex David Groce" > > Subject: Eleanor Bold > > Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:57:36 -0400 > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > I've often wondered if the name "Eleanor Bold" in PEACE is simply a > > coincidence, or is intended to mean something. I've seen Wolfe refer to > > Trollope before, particularly in an essay or interview when he was discussing > > the value to a writer of having a job other than writing (I think this is in > > CASTLE OF DAYS). So, it seems reasonable to assume Wolfe's read BARCHESTER > > TOWERS, and possibly all of the Barchester books, and it is an intentional > > effect. But what exactly is it supposed to suggest? Any ideas? > > > > -- > > "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." - John 8:32 > > -- > > Alex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu) > > Senior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction) > > '98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President > > 608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366 > > http://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce > > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.5 --------------- > > > > From: "J. Schultz" > > Subject: Autarch > > Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:42:38 -0400 > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; > > charset="iso-8859-1" > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > It takes me a while to get around to reading all my mail. This is in > > response to the difference between Autarch and Monarch. As we have all > > figured by now Autarch means one who rules themselves. This idea works into > > one of the themes I see present in the first set of books (tBotNS). At each > > step in Severian's development we see him cast off the power of one > > authority after another. He breaks his ties from the authority of the > > guild, the Archon and his post as Lictor, Typhon, etc. It all leads up to > > the point where just before the Lake people attack the castle of Baldanders, > > when Severian says (to paraphrase) I began to follow the Increate's > > authority above all others. Severian has become his own man, as it were. > > He decides for himself what is right and wrong, moral and evil, with a > > personal relationship with God. Thus I feel that the title "Autarch" is > > symbolic of this change and that the title has more thematic meaning, rather > > than any real practical meaning in the way of legal proceedure. A rose is a > > rose is a rose. Or, it doesn't really matter what you call him, the idea is > > that he is the top dog and no one is higher, the one man who rules himself. > > As we find out, however, the Autarch is the subject of the Hierodules and > > other higher powers (at least in some sense of the word). We can't forget > > that the message of tBotNS is basically spiritual and religious, whether we > > like it or not. In my mind it is the redemption of a torturer who is lost > > in an immoral and decaying world. > > > > As far as what would have happened had Appian let Severian enter Yesod, he > > most likely would have failed having not learned the important lessons that > > were to come. However, He would have EATEN Appian's brains AT THAT TIME. > > Appian even says, "Gee, sorry I'm so shocked but I thought I had more time." > > Which leads me to believe that Appian knows that Sev will take the throne > > and he knows that to take the throne he (Appian) has to be dead. I would > > balk too if my replacement walked in the door and said, "Well, I'm ready, > > take me to the garden and get your brains ready." While Sev doesn't say > > this it is percieved this way by Appian. > > > > Let me say that the story has already faded in my mind and mingled with half > > ideas, my own experiences, and the way I would like it to be. (as I'm sure > > happens to us all) > > > > One timeless question (FunkMonkey steps in line behind hundreds of > > philosophers, ancient to modern) How much free will does Severian have? > > When does Tra. KNOW Severain has passed. Have they engineered him from the > > begining and so no test is needed? He has some power from the White > > Fountain long before heading into space, as Sev himself says, 'as if the > > presentment of his future came back through time to him.' Assuming he > > raised Triskle from the dead he has had his 'powers' from the begining. > > Everyone on Urth in Sev's time knows of the Concilliator. The Concilliator > > is Sev returning triumphant. Thus Severian has already suceeded before he > > begun! Or has he? Time travel always throws me through a logic loop. Like > > asking the question "If I went back in time and killed my past self, who > > would grow up to kill me?" Any thoughts? This could be and endless > > discussion. > > > > FunkMonkey > > with the logical MonkeyWrench > > > > J. Schutlz > > jschultz at wcnet.org > > > > > > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.6 --------------- > > > > From: m.driussi at genie.com > > Subject: (urth) Questions Keep Questing > > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 04:11:00 GMT > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > Adam, > > > > FWIW I didn't take your post in a querulous mode. And I'm glad that > > something I wrote seemed clear and enlightening, but of course I was > > only shooting in the dark and I can't hope to hit a homer every time, > > even if it is a room full of ancient Greek poets who are blind, just > > to mix metaphors (and this one is for raster--don't think I didn't > > laugh on that homer quip). > > > > I'm comfortable with the paradoxes I hold in suspension on this one. > > If I can continue to explain what I see, maybe you can see it even if > > you don't particularly believe it. > > > > The Peter Principle is about the triumph of mediocrity, I think. > > > > Il Principe is Machiavelli's work about amoral statecraft. > > > > Peter Wright's papers on the "Fictions of the New Sun" provide a > > Machiavellian reading (which, in turn, makes Severian's narrative > > much closer to Herbert's DUNE series than Tolkien's LOTR). > > > > "Sirens of Titan" is another good touchstone and I'm glad you brought > > it up. This is the "sarcastic" or "cosmic joke" answer to the Big > > Question, and I think we can all agree that it isn't an > > overwhelmingly fitting solution to the Briah/Yesod situation. > > > > Some of your questions can be answered: The situation facing Severian > > rides a tightrope between free-will and pre-destination. > > > > This by itself is a huge topic. Philosophy, physics, metaphysics, > > etc. > > > > In practical terms, we rejoice that Severian took the brown book, > > rather than Canog's Book of the New Sun, because this "opens the > > loop" and makes the oracular power of the tales work their magic on > > Severian, which then helps him behave in a certain way, which is then > > faithfully recorded as Canog's Book of the New Sun. If Severian had > > taken Canog's, it would have been a closed loop "blueprint"; Severian > > would have been reduced to being a robot--and maybe would have > > resisted doing it, and the whole thing would collapse. > > > > Likewise, nobody with any authority and/or knowledge could ever "tell > > Severian the truth" or "what to do" or anything like that. For the > > same reason. They tell him just enough and just in time. He has to > > be guided to the right decision, but he cannot be simply told, nor > > forced to do something. > > > > Maybe we could liken it to developing a photograph: it is done in the > > dark, by mysterious rituals and formula, but there is a goal in mind > > and it begins to materialize until finally it is done and we can turn > > on the light and see it clearly. > > > > As for why does Yesod care. Well, one model is that Briah and Yesod > > are two halves of the same creature--one is male and one is female, > > to use the crudest analogy. They must have an exchange of > > information to ensure their own future survival: Urth gets a New Sun, > > and Yesod gets the next stage closer to Hieros . . . who will then > > make hierogrammates. It all is a reproductive rite; as if homo > > sapiens were to guide australopithecus toward becoming homo erectus, > > so that homo erectus would give way to homo sapiens. > > > > Which brings us to another dicotomy: the breaking of the human > > experience into Pure Order and the wild things. Cyriaca's tale of > > posthistory tells us that the First Empire was founded upon the one > > (Order) and brought down by the rejected other (non-order). The > > implication being (I think) that there should be a balance, within > > the individual and within the culture. > > > > Not to be "zen" about it, nor too smug, but questions about the very > > mysterious first half of URTH should not be focused entirely in the > > "logical" or "rational" mode. If Order leads to brick walls of > > confusion, see if Non-order can lead to a doorway. If "modern > > science" can't answer, try "cave painting poetry" instead. > > > > If you haven't already, you really should read Wright's essays. You > > might find that they fit you like a tee. > > > > =mantis= > > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.7 --------------- > > > > From: mary whalen > > Subject: (urth) David as Maitre 2 > > Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:39:50 -0700 (PDT) > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > This is Sean Whalen (prion). > > > > I think that in _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_ the junior officer who > > reviews VRT's case is actually David. First, David is known to have > > gone to the capital after his father's death, presumably to follow his > > love of political power. Plenty of time has passed since the murder > > and VRT's arrest for him to have attained such a position and to have > > held it for a fairly significant amount of time. Also, he is called a > > junior officer and the other officer he meets is called a brother > > officer. This is an allusion to the fact that David is younger than > > his "brother" No. 5. The other person the j.o. is mentioned in this > > story to be younger than is his slave, who is probably one of the > > clones or altered clones of Maitre. This seems to be plenty, in a > > Wolfe book, to link him to David. More, he is only addressed as > > Maitre, just like his father was, continuing the chain of linkage. > > The other officer also says that he always was a night owl, which is > > similar to the way that David and No. 5 stayed up when they were young > > in FHC. Also, when he hits the slave, it is like a reversal of when > > No. 5 accidently stabbed him when he was fighting the other clone of > > Maitre with four arms. > > > > prion > > _________________________________________________________ > > DO YOU YAHOO!? > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.8 --------------- > > > > From: mary whalen > > Subject: (urth) Fifth Head miscellaney > > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:05:28 -0700 (PDT) > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > This is Sean Whalen (prion). > > > > I just wanted to put down a few minor miscellaneous points I have in > > my mind about _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_. > > > > Today I saw a show about Neanderthals. It seems that their > > flintworkers could make a blade that is the sharpest known to man, as > > could the later humans. The discusser said that it is even sharper > > than a modern surgeon's scalpel. Marsch talks about how flint can be > > chipped with little dexterity when he talks to RT speculating about > > how he could make the implements he sells as Annese with his arthritic > > hands. VRT probably used flint to cut out the first pages of Marsch's > > diary, which are said in the story to have been cut out with an > > instrument sharper than a scalpel. > > > > VRT may have bought the brass circumciser to use on himself, so that > > he would not be discovered to be impersonating Marsch if his books > > were found. Did he ever get to use it? I don't know if anyone in > > authority ever saw him naked, and he asked not to be strip-searched by > > the men who arrest him. > > > > Isn't it possible that VRT didn't kill Marsch, but that he was killed > > by the tire-tiger? In the journal, written by VRT, it says that > > Marsch was attacked by the waiting tiger when he came down from the > > tree, and that he should have been mauled but was absurdly lucky, and > > was only knocked back into a thorn bush. It seems to me that the > > tiger actually killed Marsch, and that VRT wrote that Marsch survived > > so that he could take his place. Otherwise, there's no reason to > > include this passage at all, as it seems ridiculous that Marsch could > > actually save himself if the tiger attacked as he came down the tree. > > > > Again, I wonder if VRT actually killed the cat-girl or just wrote that > > so that he wouldn't have to write about her interactions with Marsch, > > which would have been very different from the interactions he had with > > her, and too difficult for him to make up. When he begins to write in > > the journal, he also talks about "we" a lot, apparently about him and > > the mules, but perhaps not. > > > > I don't think that I believe Robert Borski's idea that RT is actually > > an abo himself. It seems odd that his wife and son have green eyes > > when he doesn't. VRT thinks he's a human, he says that what happens > > to his hands will keep him from his profession, implying that he had > > tool-using hands before. He can operate the buttons that his wife > > can't. > > > > Also, I believe that there was some discussion about what VRT and > > Maitre believe about Jeannine's genetic relations when VRT says that > > she is the daughter of "shall we say an earlier 'version'" of No. 5. > > It seems possible that he meant a version as the parent of the Gene > > Wolfe genome, rather than an earlier person in the line of clones. > > However, in jail VRT says that Jeannine is genetically Gene's > > daughter. At that time, remember, VRT didn't know that No. 5 knew he > > was a clone, and was thus just being subtle. > > > > prion > > _________________________________________________________ > > DO YOU YAHOO!? > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.9 --------------- > > > > From: Peter Westlake > > Subject: Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth > > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:23:52 +0100 > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > References: <199807022151.OAA05425 at lists1.best.com> > > In-Reply-To: <199807051857.LAA20487 at lists1.best.com> > > > > At 13:57 1998-07-05 -0500, Adam wrote: > > > prion wrote: > > > > A previous letter to the list (I'm sorry but I don't remember when) > > > > asked how the Commonwealth could be in a South America geographically > > > > similar to the current continent when the Commonwealth is described as > > > > consisting of an archipelago of islands to the south. The answer is > > > > that SA does have a long chain of many islands in the south, but it > > > > closely follows the close, so the questioner probably wouldn't > > > > remember them or have noticed them just by casually looking in the > > > > first place. > > > I was the original questioner, and I was aware of the islands in the > > > south of SA. My question was based on my belief that Severian was > > > asserting that the Commonwealth consisted entirely of islands. But > > > reexamining the quote, it now seems clear to me that the relevant > > > phrase--"a chain of islands like our south"--refers to the southern- > > > most portion of the Commonwealth, and not to the Commonwealth as a > > > whole, as I had originally thought. So there's no problem there. > > Hasn't Wolfe said that Gyoll is the Orinoco? As usual, I can't find > > the place where I read this. But I looked at an atlas yesterday and > > was quite surprised. Because if it's true, then the islands in the > > South - the direction away from the Equator - would be the West Indies. > > Last year Scott Dalrymple wrote: > > > And, regarding Vodalus's assertion that Urth has flipped on her axis, would > > > that matter? To someone like Severian, wouldn't the world appear to be the > > > same? He'd still be traveling toward Urth's belly to reach the tropical > > > regions. After all, North and South, while tied to poles, are somewhat > > > arbitrary constructs, aren't they? Why couldn't we depict the world with > > > the South Pole on "top"? Maybe we've got the whole universe upside-down. > > (I quote Scott because I can't find the original quote ;-) > > > > It makes sense for the West Indies to be rather colder than nowadays, > > while the islands along the coast of South America would surely be > > under the ice. The West Indies are more of an archipelago, too. > > I think this also explains why the rivers all flow West, when we > > would expect them to flow East. > > > > In _Citadel_ Severian is walking North with the sea to the West and > > the Sun rising on his right. The Sun still rises in the East, I think > > (doesn't Typhon's statue face West, away from the sunrise?) so this > > really would be the world having turned over, not a magnetic reversal. > > Mind you, this is about the one place in the whole book where left > > or right are mentioned explicitly. I would almost rather believe the > > Sun rose in the West than trust Severian to know which way was right, > > given his total inability to follow directions. > > > > SBear. > > > > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.10 --------------- > > > > From: mary whalen > > Subject: Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth > > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:35:52 -0700 (PDT) > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > This is Sean Whalen (prion). > > > > ---Peter Westlake wrote: > > > At 13:57 1998-07-05 -0500, Adam wrote: > > > > prion wrote: > > > > > A previous letter to the list (I'm sorry but I don't remember when) > > > > > asked how the Commonwealth could be in a South America > > > > > geographically > > > > > similar to the current continent when the Commonwealth is > > > > > described as > > > > > consisting of an archipelago of islands to the south. The answer > > > > > is > > > > > that SA does have a long chain of many islands in the south, but it > > > > > closely follows the close, so the questioner probably wouldn't > > > > > remember them or have noticed them just by casually looking in the > > > > > first place. > > > > I was the original questioner, and I was aware of the islands in the > > > > south of SA. My question was based on my belief that Severian was > > > > asserting that the Commonwealth consisted entirely of islands. But > > > > reexamining the quote, it now seems clear to me that the relevant > > > > phrase--"a chain of islands like our south"--refers to the southern- > > > > most portion of the Commonwealth, and not to the Commonwealth as a > > > > whole, as I had originally thought. So there's no problem there. > > > Hasn't Wolfe said that Gyoll is the Orinoco? As usual, I can't find > > > the place where I read this. But I looked at an atlas yesterday and > > > was quite surprised. Because if it's true, then the islands in the > > > South - the direction away from the Equator - would be the West > > > Indies. > > Wheww. How's that for a bundle of citations? > > > > I don't remember Wolfe ever saying this, and it doesn't appear > > possible (see below). > > > Last year Scott Dalrymple wrote: > > > > And, regarding Vodalus's assertion that Urth has flipped on her > > > > axis, would > > > > that matter? To someone like Severian, wouldn't the world appear > > > > to be the > > > > same? He'd still be traveling toward Urth's belly to reach the > > > > tropical > > > > regions. After all, North and South, while tied to poles, are > > > > somewhat > > > > arbitrary constructs, aren't they? Why couldn't we depict the > > > > world with > > > > the South Pole on "top"? Maybe we've got the whole universe > > > > upside-down. > > Vodalus was talking about the magnetic axis flipping, which has > > happened often before on Earth. > > > > North and south may seem arbitrary, but east and west definitely > > aren't. The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Assuming a > > human has a head in one direction and feet in the other, it is > > possible to determine which side is left and which right, and they are > > different. But anyway, with a person's left to the west and right to > > the east, he would be facing north, as happens to Severian (see below). > > > (I quote Scott because I can't find the original quote ;-) > > > > > > It makes sense for the West Indies to be rather colder than nowadays, > > > while the islands along the coast of South America would surely be > > > under the ice. The West Indies are more of an archipelago, too. > > > I think this also explains why the rivers all flow West, when we > > > would expect them to flow East. > > > > > > In _Citadel_ Severian is walking North with the sea to the West and > > > the Sun rising on his right. The Sun still rises in the East, I think > > > (doesn't Typhon's statue face West, away from the sunrise?) so this > > > really would be the world having turned over, not a magnetic reversal. > > > Mind you, this is about the one place in the whole book where left > > > or right are mentioned explicitly. I would almost rather believe the > > > Sun rose in the West than trust Severian to know which way was right, > > > given his total inability to follow directions. > > > > > > SBear. > > As I understand it, the entire geography is like this: the sea level > > is lower because the colder temperature has frozen more water into the > > ice caps. There is thus more land. South America is in the general > > area it is now, with a similar distribution of continents. Nessus is > > on the west coast, west of the "Andes" and perhaps on land that is > > currently underwater. The Gyoll flows from it's source in the Andes > > west to it's mouth on the west coast. East of the Andes is the Amazon > > jungle. North in North America is the country of the Ascians. West > > are the Xanthic lands (Asia). > > > > To explain: in the book it says that to the south are the narrow > > lands and the southern archipelago. This could refer to either what > > is currently north or south, however, it also says that to the north > > is the waist of the world and north of that the Ascians. There is no > > isthmus to what we call the south. Therefore, the directions are the > > same as we use today. The Ascians live in North America, the waist is > > the Isthmus of Panama and environs. The narrow lands are the narrow > > southern part of South America. Also, the islands may not be the ones > > there today, but lower ones revealed by the receded ocean. Severian > > also says that the north is hotter, in some sections of the books. > > > > The rivers flow west because he's west of the Andes. There's also > > more land in that area because of the sea level. > > > > I've already discussed how Severian's northward journey helps confirm > > this. > > > > prion > > _________________________________________________________ > > DO YOU YAHOO!? > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > --------------- END urth.v017.n006 --------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------