{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1028", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1028, "subject": "Mysteries of 5HC", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "1998-07-22T10:51:45+00:00", "last": "1998-07-23T12:33:12+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1998-07-22T10:51:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mysteries of 5HC", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tThere has been a great deal of time and energy invested in attempting\nto unravel certain mysteries of 5HC, including the Marsch/V. R. T. question\n(who killed who? when? why? what's the R. was \"Marsch\" a spy? how'd #5\nguess? or did he?), Veil's/Liev's hypotheses and the surrounding puzzles\n(who's an abo? Aunt Jeannine? Trenchard? are the abos dead? massacred?) and\nthe numerous questions of family relationships, parentages, and the past\nhistory of the colonies.\n\n\tNot to discourage these interesting arguments, but it seems to me that\nWolfe is very probably not \"playing fair\" in 5HC. I trust Wolfe, usually to,\nif he seems to invite the reader to consider a question, give the reader enough\nclues to answer it, and be fairly certain of the arrived-at answer's\ncorrectness. In 5HC, I think that it's more as if Wolfe has given the reader\nenough rope to hang himself. I think the answers are intentionally ambigious,\nand that \"red herrings\" that, interpreted one way are not \"red herrings\", and\nsometimes even seem to confirm two theories, abound.\n\tI don't think this is simply malevolence on Wolfe's part, but an\nextremely important thematic decision. I think Ursula LeGuin once called 5HC\n\"the uncertainty principle embodied as fiction.\" I think she was correct.\n\tThe various \"histories\" (personal and political) in 5HC are, to some\nextent, unknowable even to the participants. Personal and social identity has\nbeen frustrated, in a truly Kafka-esque sense. Certainly, the various members\nof the \"house Wolfe\" do not really understand their own identities. The\nvarious Wolfes cannot grasp their own ability to progress, and cannot escape\ntheir intense alienation. That their planet seems to be half populated by\ntheir genetic kin extends this self-obession to the whole world. And, indeed,\nthe Orwellian (but subtler) government fits in perfectly with the\ntheme--pushing papers around and playing power games without any sense of\ndestination, and with no one (apparently) aware of where they really stand in\nthe whole affair. The open slavery and sexual exploitation are the outward\nmanifestations of an undirected malevolence.\n\tThe sister world, St. Anne, is no better. If we can believe anything\nof \"A Story\", which is doubtful, the previous inhabitants were engaged in\ncomplex, strange, warfare. And possibly, the next settlers massacred the old\ninhabitants, making the question of their possible human origins practically\nimpossible to determine. Or, many of the abos may have escaped (although the\nshovel test does indicate an attempt at genocide at some point). Either way,\nthere's a great deal in the past that both sides want to cover up--one side may\nwant to hide an attempt at genocide, the other side wants to hide their\ncontinued existance, and possibly conceal how many \"people\" are actually abos.\n\tSo. The Wolfe clan isn't even sure how ubiquitous they've become, and\nfails so signally to understand itself that no member can break the cycle of\nstagnation. The police-state rulers seem, on principle, to hide and distort\nany facts they get ahold of, even from the other members of the government, who\nsensibly don't trust each other. St. Anne & Earth may be spying on this\ngovernment, or this may be a fiction invented for unknown purposes.\n Some/all/none of the people on St. Croix may be abos from St. Anne, but if so\nthey have every reason to hide the fact. Even if none are, then Aunt Jeannine\nis attempting to confuse this truth. The people of St. Anne also seem to have\na past to hide, and the abos are definitely (if there are any left!) deceptive\nand secretive.\n\tSo, are there ANY really reliable narrators in 5HC? #5 is probably as\nclose as we come, and although it seems likely he is largely telling the truth,\nhe leaves out a great deal (such as his \"father's\" death). And fails to\nexplain other things--such as his method of getting rid of Marsch--if it's\nsimply a wild accusation, it's astonishing that it's (possibly) right on the\nmark. \"A Story\" is possibly a murder-confession, possibly an anthropological\nfantasy, and possibly a real event buried under a layer of myth, or perhaps\neven fairly correctly narrated. Their seems to be no possible way of telling.\n And Marsch's notebook is, I'm convinced, a tissue of misdirection and lies,\nwhoeever is writing what part of it.\n\tSo, defending any hypothesis, other than the really obvious ones (#5 is\na clone, he probably killed his father, Marsch was probably killed by V. R.\nT--although I think this one is easily interpretable as Marsch pretending to be\nreplaced by V. R. T. for unknown reasons connected to his possibly being a spy)\nis difficult. There is probably evidence to hint at it, and evidence to hint\nthat it is not true. It seems to me that the duality of Veil's/Liev's is a\nhitn to this--we don't know which is true, if either, and, really, we only\nsuspect what Liev's hypothesis is because of what Veil's is. And \"veil\"\nsuggests that any hypothesis made hides the truth more than it exposes it.\n\tWolfe's suggestion seems to be that surrounded by an atmosphere of\ncruelty, habitual deception, and given an attitude utterly dismissive of the\ndignity and freedom of other beings, a true understanding of the world, or even\nan unimpeachable conviction of one's own identity becomes impossible. In the\ndepths of a man-made hell, the soul may still exist, something may persist of\nidentity beyond a simple combination of \"Genes\" and environment, but that to\n\"know thyself\" or anything else, except that possibly 2+2 is not equal to 5, is\nimpossible. Satan is \"The Father of Lies\" and the story the begins at 666\nSaltimbanque seems to show that Hell's walls may cover a planet, an invisible\nan inescapable labyrinth of lies." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1998-07-22T23:09:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Mysteries of 5HC", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There has been a great deal of time and energy invested in attempting\nto unravel certain mysteries of 5HC, including the Marsch/V. R. T. question\n(who killed who? when? why? what's the R. was \"Marsch\" a spy? how'd #5\nguess? or did he?), Veil's/Liev's hypotheses and the surrounding puzzles\n(who's an abo? Aunt Jeannine? Trenchard? are the abos dead?\nmassacred?) and\nthe numerous questions of family relationships, parentages, and the past\nhistory of the colonies.\n\nNot to discourage these interesting arguments, but it seems to me that\nWolfe is very probably not \"playing fair\" in 5HC. ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Amen!\n\nI agree with you completely and I think this would be a very appropriate\nlast word on 5HC...\n\nbut I know it won't be. 8->\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "adam louis stephanides", "address": "astephan at students.uiuc.edu" }, "date": "1998-07-23T12:33:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mysteries of 5HC", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 22 Jul 1998 Alex David Groce wrote:\n\tNot to discourage these interesting arguments, but it seems to me that\nWolfe is very probably not \"playing fair\" in 5HC. I trust Wolfe, usually to,\nif he seems to invite the reader to consider a question, give the reader enough\nclues to answer it, and be fairly certain of the arrived-at answer's\ncorrectness. In 5HC, I think that it's more as if Wolfe has given the reader\nenough rope to hang himself. I think the answers are intentionally ambigious,\nand that \"red herrings\" that, interpreted one way are not \"red herrings\", and\nsometimes even seem to confirm two theories, abound." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This make a lot of sense to me, as does the rest of your excellent post.\nIt's further confirmed by the very last action in the book, when the\nofficer finds a spool of tape he'd overlooked and drops it out the window:\nit's as if Wolfe is telling us that he's deliberately leaving out vital\ninformation.\n\nI question, though, how much this is unique to 5HC. I used to have the\nsame trust in Wolfe as you do, but lately I've been wondering. While\nWolfe's other work may not involve deliberate deception to the extent 5HC\ndoes, there are certainly many in which the narrator fails to understand\nwhat is going on, and I'm beginning to suspect the ambiguity this produces\nmay often be unresolvable. In the \"Suzanne Delage\" discussion, for\ninstance, while each of the participants may have been \"fairly certain\" of\nthe correctness of his or her solution, none of us seemed to get very far\nconvincing anyone else. I've never seen a satisfactory explication of\nCASTLEVIEW. And when mantis himself suggests that we should \"stop making\nsense\" of the first half of URTH, well, then you know there's trouble in\nRiver City.\n\n--Adam" } ] } ] }