{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1058", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1058, "subject": "Weer is not dead.", "messages": 12, "voices": 5, "first": "1998-08-25T10:34:49+00:00", "last": "1998-09-07T01:30:56+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-08-25T10:34:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weer is not dead.", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 23 Aug 1998, Jason Voegele wrote:\nFor starters, it does appear the Weer is dead from the outset of the\nbook--many have noted that the falling tree disturbs his grave. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For starters, I agree that Weer is not only 'dead,' but has been for a\nlong time. Recapping evidence others have presented before: Eleanor\nBold's hobby is planting trees on the graves of her friends, elm trees are\nsaid to be planted to keep the dead from walking about as ghosts, Weer\nsays that the elm Eleanor planted fell (freeing his ghost), the time from\nplanting a tree until it falls is likely to be very long.\n\nHowever..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On other\ntheme in the book that I'm fond of (though I've had little luck convincing\nanyone of this) is solipsism. Weer's universe seems to exist solely in his\nthoughts, but his relating of the stories of the dead breathes new life into\nthose old bones. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the very end of the book hints that you are righter than you know. \nThe book ends with a reference to the story of the Chinese pillow and with\na voice calling Dennis to wake up. I think this is the glimmer of grace\nthat redeems the whole book.\n\nJust like the young man in the Chinese story, young Dennis has been given\na dream of an entire life (and even part of an afterlife) that might await\nhim if he makes certain choices. It is a life of power and riches, that\nfrom the outside looks very successful, but perhaps a lonely life, a life\nin which he might have to kill to get and hold on to his wealth. And\nthen, at the end of the book he wakes up, with the opportunity to make a\nchoice (perhaps the choice not to fight/kill Bobby that day? Is that\nwhere it all started to go wrong?) \n\nIn the story of the Chinese pillow, we are not explicitly told why the\nyoung man, when offered a life of power, wealth, and many sons, would,\nwhen he wakes, choose to take another path, although much of the poignancy\nof the story is in imagining why. But in Weer, we see the same story from\nthe inside. We are experiencing the dream of the Chinese pillow along\nwith Dennis, and so we see why he might not choose this life. The story\ntold in Peace is the life (and death) Dennis *might* live. \n\nThe story of the Sidhe near the end is a message to Weer: trying to\nprolong yourself as a ghost is fruitless (the Sidhe living on as the flock\nof geese are like Weer living on as a ghost). You must die (in baptism we\ndie and are buried with Christ) in order to live again. But how can Weer,\nwho is already dead, die? He can't, but young Dennis can wake from sleep\n(=death) in order to live a new, different life.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Voegele", "address": "voegele.6 at osu.edu" }, "date": "1998-08-25T11:35:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Weer is not dead.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "|For starters, I agree that Weer is not only 'dead,' but has been for a\n|long time. Recapping evidence others have presented before: Eleanor\n|Bold's hobby is planting trees on the graves of her friends, elm trees are\n|said to be planted to keep the dead from walking about as ghosts, Weer\n|says that the elm Eleanor planted fell (freeing his ghost), the time from\n|planting a tree until it falls is likely to be very long.\n\nI believe we have a consensus here.\n\n|However...\n|\n|> One other\n|> theme in the book that I'm fond of (though I've had little luck\nconvincing\n|> anyone of this) is solipsism. Weer's universe seems to exist solely in\nhis\n|> thoughts, but his relating of the stories of the dead breathes new life\ninto\n|> those old bones.\n|\n|I think the very end of the book hints that you are righter than you know.\n|The book ends with a reference to the story of the Chinese pillow and with\n|a voice calling Dennis to wake up. I think this is the glimmer of grace\n|that redeems the whole book.\n[snip]\n\nWow, you've summed up in a few paragraphs exactly what I've been looking for\nin this book. It has always bothered me that Wolfe would right such a\nbeautiful and poignant book about the life of a probable murderer. I failed\nto see the point, although it didn't decrease my love for the work. The\nend, I thought, was always touching from a sentimental point of view but I\nfailed to grasp completely its significance.\n\nObviously, I think there is more to the book than this, but this certainly\nprovides a focus. It still leaves unanswered the significance of all the\nlife-stories in the book. It can be argued that they are there simply as a\ncross-section of Weer's life, but I find little satisfaction in this view.\nThe stories are given to much weight for such a simple explanation (even\nconsidering the tricks Wolfe likes to play) and I still think the\n\"Necronomicon\" theme to the work is primary. Consider the scene in which\nAunt Olivia, Julius Smart (?), and Weer all observe the skull in the cave\nbut fail to mention it to one another. I'd like to delve a little into a\nmore \"existential\" view of this book, but it will have to wait (unless\nsomeone would like to take up the baton here).\n\nJason Voegele" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1998-08-26T00:12:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Weer is not dead.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum (Michael Straight ) said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And\nthen, at the end of the book he wakes up, with the opportunity to make a\nchoice (perhaps the choice not to fight/kill Bobby that day? Is that\nwhere it all started to go wrong?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Alex David Groce\" said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The\nNecronomicon, \"the book that binds the dead,\" is appropriate, in that it is by\nbinding his life into a story that Weer comes to terms with his painful\n(although not, in my opinion, murderou, other than Bobby) and solitary life." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I really find it hard to support the idea that a five-year-old Alden Dennis\nWeer can be said to have *murdered* Bobby Black. They were engaged in what\nseems to be normal, if somewhat rough, play. Also, if we can believe Weer,\nand if we can't then we have no witness to the events at all, he didn't\npush Bobby. They were wrestling on the stairs and both (probably) fell.\n(See _Peace_, p. 8, the short middle paragraph, Orb ed.) Weer also gives us\nno motive; he seems to have no reason to kill Bobby. Weer certainly seems\nto dislike him, but I get the impression that Bobby Black is an older, or\nat least bigger, kid and a bully.\n\nIn any case, the events that up to Bobby's death seem to be an accident,\nunless Weer is lying (always possible) or just mis-remembering to suit his\nown sense of what should have happened (as he says he may be doing to a set\nof Christmas memories - p. 20 last paragraph and continuing onto p. 21).\nBut again, who else do we have to ask?\n\nWhat I am trying to say here is that I find this event to be a very poor\nchoice for a turning point in Weer's life, if it is one. Weer is too young\nto realize the consequences of his actions and his actions certainly do not\nlead inevitably to Bobby Black's death. It really is not a matter of\nchoosing to push or not push Bobby, but a choice of whether to fight him or\nnot fight (leaving capitulation or flight, if flight from the attic is even\npossible). So it seems to me that we have a boy of five who has to make a\nchoice to eschew violence or embrace it, a choice that will change his life\nforever, if we accept that this is seminal event that forms Weer into what\nhe becomes.\n\nLet me try to be clear (for a change) one final time. I think that the\nevents that followed from Bobby Black's death (Weer's parents leaving for\nEurope for two (?) years without him and his time spent under the care of\nAunt Olivia) definitely did have a great deal of influence on the man he\ngrew into. But, if the outcome of the fight with Bobby was a test for Weer,\nI don't think it was a fair one.\n\nBy the way, Rostrum, thank you for your post from which I quoted above. It\nmakes the case for Weer's possible redemption better than anything I have\nseen before and I found it quite heartening.\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1998-08-26T13:29:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Weer is not dead.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Aug 26, 12:12am, William H. Ansley wrote:\n\n\tI agree--I only meant that Bobby is the \"best\" case I see for someone\nkilled by Weer (and a poor case, although it's easy to see how people blamed\nhim and how it surely changed his life)--and I don't see it as his test, or\nfailure. I'm not sure that there IS an exact turning point where things went\nwrong for Weer--I think the book is more about coming to understand what did\nhappen to him, not what might have been (although the headrest story does seem\nsuggestive of that...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In any case, the events that up to Bobby's death seem to be an accident,\nunless Weer is lying (always possible) or just mis-remembering to suit his\nown sense of what should have happened (as he says he may be doing to a set\nof Christmas memories - p. 20 last paragraph and continuing onto p. 21).\nBut again, who else do we have to ask?\n\nWhat I am trying to say here is that I find this event to be a very poor\nchoice for a turning point in Weer's life, if it is one. Weer is too young\nto realize the consequences of his actions and his actions certainly do not\nlead inevitably to Bobby Black's death. It really is not a matter of\nchoosing to push or not push Bobby, but a choice of whether to fight him or\nnot fight (leaving capitulation or flight, if flight from the attic is even\npossible). So it seems to me that we have a boy of five who has to make a\nchoice to eschew violence or embrace it, a choice that will change his life\nforever, if we accept that this is seminal event that forms Weer into what\nhe becomes.\n\nLet me try to be clear (for a change) one final time. I think that the\nevents that followed from Bobby Black's death (Weer's parents leaving for\nEurope for two (?) years without him and his time spent under the care of\nAunt Olivia) definitely did have a great deal of influence on the man he\ngrew into. But, if the outcome of the fight with Bobby was a test for Weer,\nI don't think it was a fair one." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-08-26T13:58:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Weer is not dead.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, William H. Ansley wrote:\nRostrum (Michael Straight ) said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "then, at the end of the book he wakes up, with the opportunity to make a\nchoice (perhaps the choice not to fight/kill Bobby that day? Is that\nwhere it all started to go wrong?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I really find it hard to support the idea that a five-year-old Alden Dennis\nWeer can be said to have *murdered* Bobby Black. They were engaged in what\nseems to be normal, if somewhat rough, play. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What I am trying to say here is that I find this event to be a very poor\nchoice for a turning point in Weer's life, if it is one. Weer is too young\nto realize the consequences of his actions and his actions certainly do not\nlead inevitably to Bobby Black's death. It really is not a matter of\nchoosing to push or not push Bobby, but a choice of whether to fight him or\nnot fight (leaving capitulation or flight, if flight from the attic is even\npossible). So it seems to me that we have a boy of five who has to make a\nchoice to eschew violence or embrace it, a choice that will change his life\nforever, if we accept that this is seminal event that forms Weer into what\nhe becomes.\n\nLet me try to be clear (for a change) one final time. I think that the\nevents that followed from Bobby Black's death (Weer's parents leaving for\nEurope for two (?) years without him and his time spent under the care of\nAunt Olivia) definitely did have a great deal of influence on the man he\ngrew into. But, if the outcome of the fight with Bobby was a test for Weer,\nI don't think it was a fair one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was arguing more that Bobby's death seems to have been an important\nturning point. Isn't there an implication that it had something to do\nwith Weer's parents leaving? The way it is presented screams \"this was a\nformative event\" and it is at least symbolic of Weer's lifelong choices\n\"to eschew violence or embrace it\" even if you don't want to hold young\nDennis completely responsible for that particular event.\n\nWould the \"test\" be more fair if the night before the fight, Dennis had a\ndream revealing to him the consequences of a life embracing violence? :-)\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1998-08-27T00:32:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Weer is not dead.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum (Michael Straight ) said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On other\ntheme in the book that I'm fond of (though I've had little luck convincing\nanyone of this) is solipsism. Weer's universe seems to exist solely in his\nthoughts, but his relating of the stories of the dead breathes new life into\nthose old bones." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the very end of the book hints that you are righter than you know.\nThe book ends with a reference to the story of the Chinese pillow and with\na voice calling Dennis to wake up. I think this is the glimmer of grace\nthat redeems the whole book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum,\n\nYour recollection of the end of the book is a little bit off.\n\n-----------------\nIt is time, I think, that I see the enchanted headrest of the Chinese\nphilosopher looming behind me, and I wait its coming. My aunt's voice on\nthe intercom says, \"Den, darling, are you awake in there?\"\n\n_Peace_, p. 264, Orb ed.\n-----------------\n\nLike so many things Wolfe writes this passage seems contradictory. On the\none hand, the reference to the \"enchanted headrest of the Chinese\nphilosopher\" seems to indicate that Weer's memories of his life (but from\nwhat point?) were a dream or illusion and didn't happen. But we know from\nearlier in the book (p. 64 of the Orb ed.) that when Aunt Olivia say \"Den,\ndarling, are you awake in there?\" it is time for Weer to stop reading, put\nout his light and go to sleep. So, on the other hand, it seems as if Weer's\nrestless spirit may finally be going to its final rest at the end.\n\nPerhaps Weer isn't working out where his life went wrong (because until he\ndoes his spirit cannot rest) but is just going through a period of\nadjustment (which is more or less automatic and inevitable), of leaving all\nthe things that bind him to his old life (including his memories) behind so\nthat his spirit/soul/essence can go to its final destination\n(heaven/hell/oblivion?).\n\nThis is reminiscent of what happens to the dead man in Peter S. Beagle's\nnovel, _A Fine and Private Place_. (I read this many years ago and liked it\na great deal at the time. Whether I would now, I don't know.)\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1998-08-27T00:46:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Weer is not dead.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum (Michael Straight ) said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was arguing more that Bobby's death seems to have been an important\nturning point. Isn't there an implication that it had something to do\nwith Weer's parents leaving? The way it is presented screams \"this was a\nformative event\" and it is at least symbolic of Weer's lifelong choices\n\"to eschew violence or embrace it\" even if you don't want to hold young\nDennis completely responsible for that particular event.\n\nWould the \"test\" be more fair if the night before the fight, Dennis had a\ndream revealing to him the consequences of a life embracing violence? :-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe. But it definitely would be more fair as a test if he was a great\ndeal older than five.\n\n\"Alex David Groce\" said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree--I only meant that Bobby is the \"best\" case I see for someone\nkilled by Weer (and a poor case, although it's easy to see how people blamed\nhim and how it surely changed his life)--and I don't see it as his test, or\nfailure. I'm not sure that there IS an exact turning point where things went\nwrong for Weer--I think the book is more about coming to understand what did\nhappen to him, not what might have been (although the headrest story does seem\nsuggestive of that...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, we all agree that the struggle that lead to the death of Bobby Black\nmakes little sense when considered as a test for Weer or as a murder. But\nit certainly can be seen as one of the most formative events in Weer's life\nsince it led directly to his parents leaving for Europe for 2 (or more?)\nyears which resulted in permantent estrangement between them and Weer. It\nalso lead to Weer living with and being cared for by his Aunt Olivia, who\nallowed him a great deal more independance and probably offered him less\naffection than his parents (or at least his mother) would have done.\n\nOlivia Weer (and her relationship with Alden Weer) is certainly a very\nlarge, important and interesting part of the book. I intend to post about\nit when I finish my \"critical\" rereading of _Peace_.\n\nAs far as murder goes, I think a better case can be made for Weer killing\nsomeone other than Bobby Black. Because I am out of time for today, I will\nleave this as an exercise for the reader. \n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-08-27T09:52:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Weer is not dead.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, William H. Ansley wrote:\n-----------------\nIt is time, I think, that I see the enchanted headrest of the Chinese\nphilosopher looming behind me, and I wait its coming. My aunt's voice on\nthe intercom says, \"Den, darling, are you awake in there?\"\n\n_Peace_, p. 264, Orb ed.\n-----------------\n\nLike so many things Wolfe writes this passage seems contradictory. On the\none hand, the reference to the \"enchanted headrest of the Chinese\nphilosopher\" seems to indicate that Weer's memories of his life (but from\nwhat point?) were a dream or illusion and didn't happen. But we know from\nearlier in the book (p. 64 of the Orb ed.) that when Aunt Olivia say \"Den,\ndarling, are you awake in there?\" it is time for Weer to stop reading, put\nout his light and go to sleep. So, on the other hand, it seems as if Weer's\nrestless spirit may finally be going to its final rest at the end." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Excellent catch! That's what I get for spinning after reading just once\nand without a copy of the book.\n\nIt also means that, if it's a dream, it takes place after Bobby's death\nand Dennis going to live with Olivia, which torpedos my theory that the\nfight with Bobby is the fork where Dennis gets the chance to take another\npath. \n\nUnless his aunt's voice is like the fire engine in your dream that turns\nout to be an alarm clock.\n\nI still think the Chinese pillow implies some chance do it all\ndifferently, but perhaps I've been reading it too literally. Are there\nany Roman Catholic traditions in which Purgatory provides a chance to undo\nthe wrongs done in life?\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1998-08-27T16:29:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Weer is not dead.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 27, 12:46am, William H. Ansley wrote:\nOlivia Weer (and her relationship with Alden Weer) is certainly a very\nlarge, important and interesting part of the book. I intend to post about\nit when I finish my \"critical\" rereading of _Peace_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to go for the overt psycho-analysis school (which would probably be an\nespecially bad idea with Wolfe, but he has said that Weer is closer to him than\nmost think), but wasn't his mother's name Olivia?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As far as murder goes, I think a better case can be made for Weer killing\nsomeone other than Bobby Black. Because I am out of time for today, I will\nleave this as an exercise for the reader. \n\nWilliam Ansley" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aye. I know the various Weer as murderer/Weer as serial killer eliminating the\nwhole cast of characters theories. I'm just skeptical. You can make a case\nfor the librarian, possibly, more tenatively for Sherry Gold. I just don't buy\nthe cases I've heard. On the other hand, I think the Professor did kill Aunt\nOlivia (Wolfe in the interview suggests there is at least one murder--something\nlike \"I'm trying to remember who killed who in that book\") with his car.\n\tI think the thing that tends to lead people to suspect Weer of murder\nis his odd habit of mentioning someone over and over and then suddenly\ncompletely avoiding their name. It is strange, but I tend to view it more as\nwhen he has \"come to peace\" with that person, bound another dead soul to his.\nHe's finished with them, their memo is on the pad, and no more needs to be\nsaid.\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1998-08-27T23:57:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Weer is not dead.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu) said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As far as murder goes, I think a better case can be made for Weer killing\nsomeone other than Bobby Black. Because I am out of time for today, I will\nleave this as an exercise for the reader. \n\nWilliam Ansley" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I shouldn't have left this hanging. Sorry, I was tired." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aye. I know the various Weer as murderer/Weer as serial killer\neliminating the\nwhole cast of characters theories. I'm just skeptical. You can make a case\nfor the librarian, possibly, more tenatively for Sherry Gold. I just\ndon't buy\nthe cases I've heard. On the other hand, I think the Professor did kill Aunt\nOlivia (Wolfe in the interview suggests there is at least one\nmurder--something\nlike \"I'm trying to remember who killed who in that book\") with his car." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nope. I don't think Weer is a serial killer and I never have, although I\nhave heard this theory before. But there is one caused death in the book\nthat might be said to be morally equivalent to murder, even if it doesn't\nfit the legal definition. Weer may have had nothing to do with it and even\nif he did he was not solely responsible.\n\nI am talking about the worker at Julius Smart's OJ plant that froze to\ndeath in the juice freezer. The incident is described on p. 247 (_Peace_,\nOrb ed.) and further illuminated on p. 249. The death has been publicly\nbeen attributed to accident - the latch on the freezer froze up while the\nguy (a young man of eighteen or so) was inside stacking boxes of juice.\n\nBut, on p. 249, Weer reveals that it was actually a practical joke that\nturned fatal. An object was put through the hole in the latch designed to\nreceive a padlock hasp by some men who worked with the guy. The guy stacked\njuice crates near the door and sent them crashing against it to try to\nbatter it open. The man on the outside (who was not much older than the guy\ninside) was frightened because he couldn't imagine what was happening\ninside the freezer. The door and latch were bent and the hinges partly\nsprung, so he couldn't open the door when he tried and he was frightened of\nwhat the guy would do to him when he got out so he went home.\n\nWhen the guy was found dead the next day, plant management hushed it up and\ndidn't discipline the man who failed to let the guy in the freezer out.\n\nWeer tells the story as if the man outside the freezer were someone else\n(although he doesn't name him or anyone else involved) but it is very\ntempting to believe it was him. His description of the events is very vivid\nand he was working at the plant at the time and was the right age.\n\nIf it was Weer, then I would say that this incident was a conscious choice\nand an action for which he could be legitimately judged.\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1998-08-28T13:58:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Weer is not dead.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 27, 11:57pm, William H. Ansley wrote:\nNope. I don't think Weer is a serial killer and I never have, although I\nhave heard this theory before. But there is one caused death in the book\nthat might be said to be morally equivalent to murder, even if it doesn't\nfit the legal definition. Weer may have had nothing to do with it and even\nif he did he was not solely responsible.\n\nI am talking about the worker at Julius Smart's OJ plant that froze to\ndeath in the juice freezer. The incident is described on p. 247 (_Peace_,\nOrb ed.) and further illuminated on p. 249. The death has been publicly\nbeen attributed to accident - the latch on the freezer froze up while the\nguy (a young man of eighteen or so) was inside stacking boxes of juice.\n\nBut, on p. 249, Weer reveals that it was actually a practical joke that\nturned fatal. An object was put through the hole in the latch designed to\nreceive a padlock hasp by some men who worked with the guy. The guy stacked\njuice crates near the door and sent them crashing against it to try to\nbatter it open. The man on the outside (who was not much older than the guy\ninside) was frightened because he couldn't imagine what was happening\ninside the freezer. The door and latch were bent and the hinges partly\nsprung, so he couldn't open the door when he tried and he was frightened of\nwhat the guy would do to him when he got out so he went home.\n\nWhen the guy was found dead the next day, plant management hushed it up and\ndidn't discipline the man who failed to let the guy in the freezer out.\n\nWeer tells the story as if the man outside the freezer were someone else\n(although he doesn't name him or anyone else involved) but it is very\ntempting to believe it was him. His description of the events is very vivid\nand he was working at the plant at the time and was the right age.\n\nIf it was Weer, then I would say that this incident was a conscious choice\nand an action for which he could be legitimately judged." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tOh--then we are actually in agreement here. I think there's a good\nchance that it was Weer (or Wolfe meant it to be Weer--the correspondence model\nof truth is tricky when dealing with a fictional reality...) And that\ndefinitely if so it's one of the most important things preventing him from\nfinding Peace. I was thinking of all the theories where every time there's a\nscene change Weer goes and shoots some character.\n\tIt's probably not exactly murder, legally or, more relevantly,\nmorally--but it's very close, and would definitely be something a Wolfe\ncharacter would be likely to hint at rather than outright admitting." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1998-09-07T01:30:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Weer is not dead.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:52 AM 8/27/98 -0400, you wrote:\n\nI still think the Chinese pillow implies some chance do it all\ndifferently, but perhaps I've been reading it too literally. Are there\nany Roman Catholic traditions in which Purgatory provides a chance to undo\nthe wrongs done in life?\n\n-Rostrum" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tThough not a Catholic myself, as a practicing theologian I have never\nheard of such a thing. Purgatory in RC theology is a way of coming to peace\nwith all that has happened in your life; it is the anteroom of heaven (not\nsome separate place). And I think that this is the basic meaning of *Peace.*\n\tOn the house question: Weer has built this house out of his life; it is\nthe house of his life, not a physical building. As he explores this house,\nhe comes to grips with his life -- passing judgment on it, so to speak,\nbefore standing before the Supreme Judge. Remember Jesus' words in Matthew\n7: all of us build houses either on rock or sand, and such \"houses\" are our\nlives. Thus, I don't think Weer's house is really a \"memory palace\" (such\nas Latro uses) or a physical building. \n\nNutria (Jim Jordan)" } ] } ] }