{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1086", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1086, "subject": "Adam and Eve", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "1998-09-03T13:15:41+00:00", "last": "1998-09-04T08:30:39+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-09-03T13:15:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Adam and Eve", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Christopher R. Culver wrote:\n< I wonder about Adam and Eve, and the naked couple dropped of by Hierodules\nin the play as well as (repeatedly?) in the reality. (Re-seeding the fairie,\nas it\nwere.)>\n\nI always used to assume that those people were Hierodules, but not necessarily\nFamulimus and Barbatus. I must comment here, however, that the point of\nreseeding Urth and giving it back sentient life is so that *humanity* will be\nable to create the Hierodules, since there was the chance it was the right\nSefiroth at the right time. So, the people dropped in the Garden of the HA are\nhuman.\nThe hypothesis lately has been raised that the Meschia and Meschiane of Ushas\nare actually sailors from the Ship Tzadkiel, but I'm not yet convinced." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are Severian's children. Sev makes this quite clear (or about as\nclear as he makes anything ) at the end of Urth." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "CRCulver", "address": "crculver at aol.com" }, "date": "1998-09-03T22:31:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Adam and Eve", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ") at the end of Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "WHAT?!?! That's the wackiest solution yet (though I'm not saying you're\nwrong). Sev's children by whom? Can you give textual references?\n\nChristopher R. Culver \nhttp://members.aol.com/crculver/index.html" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-09-04T08:30:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: Re: (urth) Adam and Eve", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Christopher R. Culver wrote:\nWHAT?!?! That's the wackiest solution yet (though I'm not saying you're\nwrong). Sev's children by whom? Can you give textual references?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ":-) I've been living with this solution for so long now it's rather a\npleasant surprise to hear it called \"wacky\". \n\nThe relevant quote is in the final chapter of Urth (Chapter LI), where\nSeverian is chatting with his priest. He remembers the young officer\nreporting that Hierodules had landed a man and woman on the grounds of\nthe House Absolute: \"Remembering that, it was simple enough to guess who\nmy priest's forbears had been - the sailors routed by my memories had\npaid for their defeat with their pasts, just as I would have lost the\nfuture of my descendants had my own past been defeated.\"\n\n\"my descendants\" seems pretty unequivocal here.\n\nI have always assumed that they are Sev's children by Apheta. Apheta,\ndon't forget, is by her own admission \"ready to mate\" when she and\nSeverian make love. And what truly cosmic sex they have: \"Lying on my\nback, I entered Yesod. Or say, rather, Yesod closed about me... There\nwas something born between Yesod and Briah when I met with Apheta upon\nthat divan... That something was myself.\" (Chapter XX.) \n\nSomething born between Yesod and Briah? Ushas, surely?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mary whalen", "address": "marewhalen at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1998-09-04T07:10:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Adam and Eve", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Sean Whalen (prion)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---Tony Ellis wrote:\n\nChristopher R. Culver wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "WHAT?!?! That's the wackiest solution yet (though I'm not saying\nyou're\nwrong). Sev's children by whom? Can you give textual references?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ":-) I've been living with this solution for so long now it's rather a\npleasant surprise to hear it called \"wacky\". \n\nThe relevant quote is in the final chapter of Urth (Chapter LI), where\nSeverian is chatting with his priest. He remembers the young officer\nreporting that Hierodules had landed a man and woman on the grounds of\nthe House Absolute: \"Remembering that, it was simple enough to guess\nwho\nmy priest's forbears had been - the sailors routed by my memories had\npaid for their defeat with their pasts, just as I would have lost the\nfuture of my descendants had my own past been defeated.\"\n\n\"my descendants\" seems pretty unequivocal here.\n\nI have always assumed that they are Sev's children by Apheta. Apheta,\ndon't forget, is by her own admission \"ready to mate\" when she and\nSeverian make love. And what truly cosmic sex they have: \"Lying on my\nback, I entered Yesod. Or say, rather, Yesod closed about me... There\nwas something born between Yesod and Briah when I met with Apheta upon\nthat divan... That something was myself.\" (Chapter XX.) \n\nSomething born between Yesod and Briah? Ushas, surely?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When I read this passage the first time, I assumed that Severian still\nknew or believed that if he failed the test in Yesod, he still would\nhave been castrated and lost the chance to sire any offspring in an\nimperial dynasty.\n\nHowever, I will now look at additional meanings this might have, given\nthat I could not nor can now understand why Severian didn't believe\nthem about his not being castrated.\n\nIf Severian believes the naked people left by the Hierodules are the\nsailors he defeated in Yesod, it seems difficult to believe that they\nare the children of Severian and Apheta. The sailors he defeats are\nnatives of Urth, and I don't think that Apheta could produce that many\ndifferent-looking children or put them in places on Urth where they\nwould be able to grow up, or where they would develop the urge to\nbecome sailors on the ship.\n\nThe other candidate you might have for the mother is Burgundofara, who\nSeverian might have impregnated, but unless you mean children in the\nsense of descendants, this wouldn't work either.\n\nWhat I NOW think Severian meant about the future of his descendants is\nquite different. If Severian had lost in the fight, he would not have\ngained the white fountain and would have been unable to travel in\ntime. He never would have been in the far past among the South\nAmericans as Apu Punchau. Severian never mentions having sex during\nthat period, but, based on prior information, if some women wanted to\nthrow themselves on the great Head of Day, Severian probably wouldn't\nhave objected. If this is the case, then by the \"current\" time,\nSeverian is one of the direct ancestors of everyone on Urth, including\nthe Urthlings who became sailors on the ship as well. The comment in\nthe closing chapters is not specifically about the defeated sailors\nbeing his children, but about all men now being his ancestors\n(including himself).\n\nAbout Apheta's child: some have previously determined that this is\nthe joining of dimensional energies that allows the white fountain to\nbe produced on Briah. I'm not completely sure, but this is an\nalternative to your theories, if you need one.\n\nprion" } ] } ] }