# Adam and Eve *The Urth list — 4 messages, 3 voices, 03 Sep 1998* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Tony Ellis *03 Sep 1998, 13:15* > Christopher R. Culver wrote: > < I wonder about Adam and Eve, and the naked couple dropped of by Hierodules > in the play as well as (repeatedly?) in the reality. (Re-seeding the fairie, > as it > were.)> > > I always used to assume that those people were Hierodules, but not necessarily > Famulimus and Barbatus. I must comment here, however, that the point of > reseeding Urth and giving it back sentient life is so that *humanity* will be > able to create the Hierodules, since there was the chance it was the right > Sefiroth at the right time. So, the people dropped in the Garden of the HA are > human. > The hypothesis lately has been raised that the Meschia and Meschiane of Ushas > are actually sailors from the Ship Tzadkiel, but I'm not yet convinced. They are Severian's children. Sev makes this quite clear (or about as clear as he makes anything ) at the end of Urth. --- ### CRCulver *03 Sep 1998, 22:31 · follows Tony Ellis* ) at the end of Urth. WHAT?!?! That's the wackiest solution yet (though I'm not saying you're wrong). Sev's children by whom? Can you give textual references? Christopher R. Culver http://members.aol.com/crculver/index.html --- ### Tony Ellis *04 Sep 1998, 08:30 · follows CRCulver* > Christopher R. Culver wrote: > WHAT?!?! That's the wackiest solution yet (though I'm not saying you're > wrong). Sev's children by whom? Can you give textual references? :-) I've been living with this solution for so long now it's rather a pleasant surprise to hear it called "wacky". The relevant quote is in the final chapter of Urth (Chapter LI), where Severian is chatting with his priest. He remembers the young officer reporting that Hierodules had landed a man and woman on the grounds of the House Absolute: "Remembering that, it was simple enough to guess who my priest's forbears had been - the sailors routed by my memories had paid for their defeat with their pasts, just as I would have lost the future of my descendants had my own past been defeated." "my descendants" seems pretty unequivocal here. I have always assumed that they are Sev's children by Apheta. Apheta, don't forget, is by her own admission "ready to mate" when she and Severian make love. And what truly cosmic sex they have: "Lying on my back, I entered Yesod. Or say, rather, Yesod closed about me... There was something born between Yesod and Briah when I met with Apheta upon that divan... That something was myself." (Chapter XX.) Something born between Yesod and Briah? Ushas, surely? --- ### mary whalen *04 Sep 1998, 07:10 · follows Tony Ellis* This is Sean Whalen (prion). > ---Tony Ellis wrote: > > Christopher R. Culver wrote: >> WHAT?!?! That's the wackiest solution yet (though I'm not saying >> you're >> wrong). Sev's children by whom? Can you give textual references? > :-) I've been living with this solution for so long now it's rather a > pleasant surprise to hear it called "wacky". > > The relevant quote is in the final chapter of Urth (Chapter LI), where > Severian is chatting with his priest. He remembers the young officer > reporting that Hierodules had landed a man and woman on the grounds of > the House Absolute: "Remembering that, it was simple enough to guess > who > my priest's forbears had been - the sailors routed by my memories had > paid for their defeat with their pasts, just as I would have lost the > future of my descendants had my own past been defeated." > > "my descendants" seems pretty unequivocal here. > > I have always assumed that they are Sev's children by Apheta. Apheta, > don't forget, is by her own admission "ready to mate" when she and > Severian make love. And what truly cosmic sex they have: "Lying on my > back, I entered Yesod. Or say, rather, Yesod closed about me... There > was something born between Yesod and Briah when I met with Apheta upon > that divan... That something was myself." (Chapter XX.) > > Something born between Yesod and Briah? Ushas, surely? When I read this passage the first time, I assumed that Severian still knew or believed that if he failed the test in Yesod, he still would have been castrated and lost the chance to sire any offspring in an imperial dynasty. However, I will now look at additional meanings this might have, given that I could not nor can now understand why Severian didn't believe them about his not being castrated. If Severian believes the naked people left by the Hierodules are the sailors he defeated in Yesod, it seems difficult to believe that they are the children of Severian and Apheta. The sailors he defeats are natives of Urth, and I don't think that Apheta could produce that many different-looking children or put them in places on Urth where they would be able to grow up, or where they would develop the urge to become sailors on the ship. The other candidate you might have for the mother is Burgundofara, who Severian might have impregnated, but unless you mean children in the sense of descendants, this wouldn't work either. What I NOW think Severian meant about the future of his descendants is quite different. If Severian had lost in the fight, he would not have gained the white fountain and would have been unable to travel in time. He never would have been in the far past among the South Americans as Apu Punchau. Severian never mentions having sex during that period, but, based on prior information, if some women wanted to throw themselves on the great Head of Day, Severian probably wouldn't have objected. If this is the case, then by the "current" time, Severian is one of the direct ancestors of everyone on Urth, including the Urthlings who became sailors on the ship as well. The comment in the closing chapters is not specifically about the defeated sailors being his children, but about all men now being his ancestors (including himself). About Apheta's child: some have previously determined that this is the joining of dimensional energies that allows the white fountain to be produced on Briah. I'm not completely sure, but this is an alternative to your theories, if you need one. prion ---