{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1125", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1125, "subject": "Digest urth.v019.n008", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1998-10-03T04:26:56+00:00", "last": "1998-10-04T20:25:03+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony A. West", "address": "severian at luna.email.ne.jp" }, "date": "1998-10-03T04:26:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n008", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Browns3 : yes, I am reading Devil in a Forest right now. I'm really\nenjoying it so far.... started it yet?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kieran Mullen", "address": "kieran at phyast.nhn.ou.edu" }, "date": "1998-10-04T20:25:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n008", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: marc at continuumsi.com\nSubject: Eclipse question\nDate: 2 Oct 1998 05:38:37 -0000" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On an unrelated not, it seems clear that Pas is the avatar of\nTyphon/Piaton (unless there are other two-headed all-powerful\nmonarchs floating around capable of building generation ships).\nBut Pas seems to be a mostly benevolent figure, at least compared\nto Echidna, Scylla, etc... Whereas, Typhon was clearly a bastard...\nGuess you'd have to chalk that one up to programmer's error, heh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " It seems reasonable to me. We see Typhon through Severian's eyes.\nTo the average citizen, Typhon is some nigh-omnipotent figure who is\nthe source of all authority. He evolves into a Zeus figure, and Zeus\nwas famous for his human foibles. The Greek and Roman gods were not\nperfect by any means." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Robert Borski\" \nSubject: Sev's Sister\nDate: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 18:48:29 -0500" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Time for me to add my speculations to the mix, since, to the best of my\nknowledge, no one's yet mentioned the woman I think is Sev's sister. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She's the khaibit known as Barbea and she works out of the House Azure in\nthe Echopraxia." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[Deletia]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Barbea, it appears, resembles what we know of Severian. She is tall,\nstraight-nosed, has limpid eyes, and could be wearing a wig made of gold\n(so her hair may actually be dark)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Hmm... and maybe she's really a man dressed as a woman and is Severian's\nolder brother! I mean this is sort of silly. All exultants are tall with\nangular features. \n\n[Deletia]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Barbea is a pseudonym; we never learn the khabit's real name, so it could\nbe Severa." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Umm.. It could be Kathy Lee Gifford, She Who Will Not Die." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Echopraxia\" suggests duplication, an echoing of the original: a twinning\nof sorts. Barbea also has another putative twin in \"Chateleine Gracia\"--or\nso Severian observes, even going so far as to claim the two might be the\nsame--just wearing different makeup." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " All of the women at the Echopraxie are khaibits, duplicates of \nexultants." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Saint Barbea is always associated with her brother Sarbelius in\nhagiographic literature. The bea/-belius endings suggest the ian/a ending\nof Severa/Severian. Both Barbea and Sarbelius were tortured before being\nexecuted." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Ok. Now this starts to be a bit more appealing to me. I couldn't get\nfrom Barbea to Severian. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Witches often service the torturers in at least their first sexual\nencounters (Master Gurloes lost his virginity this way) and according to\nthe LEXICON URTHUS, they're somewhat wanton in their ways. The witches'\npatron saint is Saint Mag, short for Magdalen, the prostitute of the New\nTestament. So it's not that big a leap to connect Severa with prostitution." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " For me it is! That's like saying the warriors at Apu-Punchau are \nrelated to Daria because they both fought in battles. This is a big\nreach. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian will soon be offered the choice of whether he wishes to stay in\nthe guild or leave. I speculate Severa/Barbea has been offered the same\ndeal with the Witches' Guild, but has chosen to leave." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Hmm... And she must be Daria's sister since Daria was a camp-follower\nand camp-followers are like prostitutes. So maybe they were triplets\nand... \n\n You can make up all the alternative histories you want but they have\nstopped having much to do with the text. There's a good pomo term for this\nwhich I can't recall.\n\n[Deletia]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lastly then, there's this quote from Severian himself:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"There was something in the eyes of both women [Barbea, Gracia], in the\nexpression of their mouths, their carriage and the fluididity of their\ngestures, that was one. It recalled something I had seen elsewhere (I could\nnot remember where), and earlier, yet it was new, and I felt somehow that\nthe other thing, that which I had known earlier, was to be preferred.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[Deletia]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian, seeing Severa, recognizes in her the eidetic ghost of their\nmother; she looks familiar, yet is new. He recalls--if inchoately--his\nmother and it's the emotional warmth of this (for what newborn infant does\nnot love his mother) that leads him to prefer it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Why can this not be an invocation of his mother *without* meaning that\nshe is related to her? Or merely a reference to Thecla or Thea?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Christopher R. Culver " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Robert, you've certainly looked into this deeply, and I think your\ntheory is sound, but I don't like the ramifications. If Merryn is not\nSeverian's sister, then what will happen in the Book of the Short Sun? Looks\nto me like we're going to see another one of Severian's notorious one night\nstands." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Can you review the evidence why you think Merryn is his sister.\nShe seems sadly obtuse from the few lines she has.\n\n Kieran Mullen" } ] } ] }