{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1170", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1170, "subject": "Digest urth.v019.n018", "messages": 6, "voices": 6, "first": "1998-10-13T23:34:10+00:00", "last": "1998-10-15T09:52:31+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "al at interport.net" }, "date": "1998-10-13T23:34:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n018", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From Robert Borski" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This one's for alga, because I miss her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I suppose flattery will coax me out of sulkdom for a moment. First,\nMr. B., unlike prion, who is almost your equal in groundless invention, I\nmust say that I think your recent geneological ventures go beyond the\nfar-fetched into the realm where undines swim among the stars.\n\nSecond, no, I don't think for a moment that the archives/library is guarded\nby taluses, I think it is \"guarded\" by librarians, of whom the latest\nguardian is Ultan, who, I need hardly remind you all, is a tribute to\nBorges. And if you doubt that for a moment, please pick up a copy of the\nsplendid new fiction omnibus and compare Cyriaca's style in telling this\ntale to that of Borges in many stories. I put \"guarded\" in quotes, because\nthe library is only a legend to everyone but neighbors and the House\nAbsolute, and would hardly need military protection.\n\nSev says that he knows more of it (the library) than she because, unlike\nher, he has been there. But he has not before heard its history. What has\nthe Claw to do with that? And I would propose Ymar to have started the\nlibrary, not Typhon--there are hints in that direction but not the other.\n\nAnd the giant mechanical soldiers which recognize either a true\nautarch--even to come--or a true Concilliator (or do you argue that they are\ntaluses?), guard Mt. Typhon. This seems to me simply a remote project that\nran out of funds and political interest and has been forgotten. An\ninterestingly similar picture of an abandoned early space project in (I\nthink) Arizona ran in today's NY Times. Cf (and not by Wolfean accident)\nOzymandius. The Saltus mine is something else again. If you really do lure\nme back, I'm only going to demand that you stay on track. Do you really want\nthat?\n\n-alga" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the ridotto being held by Abdiesus, Cyriaca, on her way to seducing\nSeverian, relates a longish tale about the Ages of Myth and Monarch\nrespectively (SWORD, Chap. 6). I'm going to skip most of it, but you should\nprobably read the chapter in its entirety. At any rate, to pick up the\nstory near the end: \"When morning came, [the autarch of the time] ordered\nthat the torches not be kindled, but that there should be a great vault\nbuilt to house all the volumes and scrolls the white-robed men had\ngathered. For he thought that if the new empire he had planned should fail\nhim at last, he would retire to that vault and enter the worlds that, in\nimitation of the ancients, he was determined to cast aside.\n\n\"His empire did fail him, as it had to...But he did not retire as he had\nplanned into that vault and the curtain wall he had caused to be built\naround it, for when once the wild things have been put behind a man for\ngood and all, they are trap-wise and cannot be recaptured.\n\n\"Nevertheless, it is said that before all he gathered was sealed away, he\nset a guardian over it. And when that guardian's time on Urth was done, he\nfound another, and he another, so that they continue ever faithful to the\ndemands of that autarch...\"\n\nCyriaca, earlier, has called this vault \"the lost archives\" and when she\nfinishes her tale, Sev says, \"It is a wonderful story. I think that perhaps\n*I know more of it than you, but I have never heard* it before.\"\n\nThis is because he's just realized the Claw has reawakened the guardian of\nthe lost archives.\n\nStill not good enough? Well, when Sev loops back in time and becomes the\nConciliator in URTH, he's told that the Saltus mine is brand new. And when\nhe's atop Mount Typhon earlier in SWORD, he can't get over how unrutted the\nroads are, despite the heavy traffic they would have had to bear; they're\nalso too steep in places for regular carts and barrows. And while Cyriaca\nnever identifies the monarch of the tale, it's fairly obvious he's\nTyphon--so we can pretty much guess the nature of the guardian.\n\nIn other words, whichever one of you first guessed taluses, you're right." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1998-10-14T00:11:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n018", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I suppose flattery will coax me out of sulkdom for a moment. First,\nMr. B., unlike prion, who is almost your equal in groundless invention, I\nmust say that I think your recent geneological ventures go beyond the\nfar-fetched into the realm where undines swim among the stars." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ahhhhhhhhhhhh!\n\nWhat a welcome breath of fresh air. I shall never be unkind to pond scum again.\n\nThank you, alga!\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Stephenson", "address": "pws at ibmth.df.unipi.it" }, "date": "1998-10-14T07:51:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n018", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "alga wrote:\nSecond, no, I don't think for a moment that the archives/library is guarded\nby taluses, I think it is \"guarded\" by librarians, of whom the latest\nguardian is Ultan..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "absolutely... even if I can't follow Severian's family tree [is there\na pun about this at the Inn of Lost Loves? maybe I shouldn't start\nthis one off] it does appear to be pretty clear this time. Is there\nany evidence in the story that the place with the volumes, scrolls and\nthe series of guardians *can't* be the library, which is the obvious\nexplanation? I worry about accepting obvious explanations, too, but\nyou can't really dispose of them till they fail to fit.\n\ncorncrake" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "1998-10-14T12:34:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n018", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Robert Borski wrote:\n...Apheta (whose name means \"starting place\")." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My Shorter Oxford has apheta as \"M 17 Gk starter or sender off = HYLEG\n\nhyleg E 17 Pers celestial indicator of the length of a newborn child's\nlife. Astrol. The giver of life in a nativity.\n\nAmusingly, the adjacent item was hyle Gk primordial matter of universe.\n\nI have two possibly deceptive or just nice folk entymologies: In _Peace_, the\nbrand new axe on the first page is suggested by Weer to be branded new. The\nSOD suggests it burning (brand) new. And in _Castleview_, Morgaine says\nthe name of Excalibur derives from Ex Calibor, although it's origin is \nin fact as a corruption of the Welsh -- is this in Tennyson perhaps? M. is\na pretty unreliable informant anyway, I guess. This latter nitpick comes from\na review of _Castleview in the journal Arthuriana (1993 3:66), which has\na few interesting thoughts.\n\nBTW the Shorter Oxford has many BOtNS words and names, incl Severian.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kieran Mullen", "address": "kieran at phyast.nhn.ou.edu" }, "date": "1998-10-14T23:59:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n018", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: m.driussi at genie.com\nSubject: (urth) Science, Her Methods" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Re: Science, scientists, and the Scientific Method. I thought that\nScience proceeded by way of cutting edge experiments; " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Sometimes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "said\nexperiments derived from hyptotheses (by definition based upon\nguesses)," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Hmm. Latest Nobel prize in physics (fractional quantum Hall effect)\nwas not based on theoretical predictions, but pushing the experiments\nto a different regime of parameters. The one before (Bose-Einstein\ncondensation) *was* based on a hypothesis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and by definition these experiments are \"successful\" less\nthan one hundred percent of the time. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Only if you know what you're looking for ahead of time (i.e. BEC)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In fact, the failures usually\n=outnumber= the successes. In any event, it is a =guessing= game." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I know that failures outnumber successes. I've had a lot of the\nform and few of the latter. But one skill one has to teach student's\nis the proper tweaking of the \"bogo-meter\": the ability to tell when\na discussion or hypothesis has gone beyond the evidence. Feynman,\nwho was not known for being an orthodox stick-in-the-mud, wrote \nabout this as ``playing by the rules of the game''. To paraphrase\nhim, You can be as inventive as you want - as long as you play by \nthe rules. \n\n I admit the rules of discourse are a bit blurry, especially in\nliterary criticism. But surely there must be *some* bounds on \nhermeneutics?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Am I wrong? Did all that intellectual labor go out with the\nalchemists? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " No, I think my point is that part of the intellectual labor is\nbeing critical. As you point out, ideas are a dime a dozen. *Good*\nideas are a bit more dear. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Has Science become some sort of orthodoxy of divine\ntransmission? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Of course not. I'm not sure how this follows logically from the\nabove discussion. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Have scientists become a species of cargo cult,\nwaiting for the next Truth to come tumbling out the cornucopia of the\nvast complex?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " This is weird, a complete inverse of how I see the discussion.\nI view some of the postings here as \"Cargo cult exegesis\" since they\nfollow the *form* of interpreting a work, but don't seem to understand\nthe standards that apply. How can a demand for a bit more rigor be\nturned into an exhortation to meaningless ritual?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Here, let me hook up my 1989 cold fusion reactor to my mid-century\nDean Drive. Quick trip to see the canals of Mars.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Interesting allusions: cold fusion and Dean drives both were \nextraordinary claims that required extraordinary proof. Their \neventual discrediting is a tribute to rational science and the danger\nof not being properly self-critical. Cold fusion is an especially\ninteresting case of an \"us vs. them\" mentality developing in a \nresearch group.\n\n Sorry to go on at such length, but the issue of science and \npseudo-science is one about which I feel strongly." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-10-15T09:52:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n018", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Kieran Mullen wrote:\nI view some of the postings here as \"Cargo cult exegesis\" since they\nfollow the *form* of interpreting a work, but don't seem to understand\nthe standards that apply. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I love this sentence so much I think I'm going to print it out and sleep\nwith it under my pillow. \n\n\"Cargo cult exegesis\"--bwahahahaha!\n\nTo go further off-topic, anyone here read Alasdair MacIntyre's AFTER\nVIRTUE? It occurs to me that that's the perfect phrase for what he thinks\nhas happened to contemporary moral philosophy: Cargo Cult Ethics. \n\nFor the record, Rostrum loves reading Mr. Borski's theories (the wilder\nthe better) and hopes that he doesn't get discouraged by our criticism,\nand that other people don't allow him to discourage them from posting more\n\"mainstream\" discussion. If you think some of what you're seeing here is\ncargo cult exegesis, you can rebutt it or just ignore it and start a\ndiscussion you like better. \n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }