{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1188", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1188, "subject": "Sev, heresy and a bit of Agia", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1998-10-15T21:03:56+00:00", "last": "1998-10-15T22:06:03+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "al at interport.net" }, "date": "1998-10-15T21:03:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev, heresy and a bit of Agia", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From AD Groce responding to alga:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it is suggestive, although I'm not sure it's as cynical as might\nappear." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I did say \"playfully cynical;\" what if we change it to wry?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As to Wolfe's 'not the sort you think' comment, he also said something\nsimilar in an old interview with Larry McCaffrey (don't have it with me...)\nalthough there (and here) it looked like the implication was more that most\npeople have no idea what being a Roman Catholic means (including most\nCatholics). I'm pretty sure Wolfe wouldn't consider himself a heretic (not\nthat most heretics would...) and would, I suspect, fall into church line on\ndefined doctrinal points (which leaves a lot of room for oddness--after\nall, I\ndoubt the Church has made a proclamation one way or the other about the\nidea\nthe Greek gods were real beings of some kind, for which Wolfe has expressed\nsympathy in the past). He's orthodox enough to be a huge Chesterton fan,\nanyway..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But I didn't say that Wolfe was/is a heretic. I said that in his grand sword\n'n sorcery revision of the New Testament (including Revelation) he made sure\nthat the name of his hero, as opposed to the names of everyone else in the\ncast, is that of a heretic. (I use revision in the Harold Bloomian sense,\nwhich I consider spot on in this particular case, and I hope I won't have to\nexplain that to anyone, though I dourly suppose that I will.) I *love* the\nfact (new for me) that it's a heretic name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I would say that despite some terminological and mythological\nborrowings, the BOTNS is philosophically quite anti-Manichean. The\nPancreator\nis fairly clearly fills both the 'God' and 'Creator' slots, and rather than\ndespising the physical as inferior or absolutely corrupt, good old earthy\nSeverian ends up taking off his boots because it's ALL Holy Ground. :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But yes, with reservations about Erebus, Abaia & co., who are echoing the\nmore dualist parts of Revelation. I said that Dr. Talos's play is\nManichaean. Which it certainly is--the gothic tradition to which Baldanders,\nTalos and all horror novelists belong is necessarily dualistic.\n\nFWIW, my personal portrait of Agia and her agenda is the identical twin of\nmantis's, though perhaps mine wouldn't have been phrased so elegantly.\nThough the last time I was agreeable enough to agree with someone, I got\nflamed for it. Grrrrrrr.\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1998-10-15T22:06:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sev, heresy and a bit of Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is mostly elaborate agreement of a sort..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 15, 9:03pm, Alice Turner wrote:\nSubject: (urth) Sev, heresy and a bit of Agia\n\nFrom AD Groce responding to alga:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it is suggestive, although I'm not sure it's as cynical as might\nappear." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I did say \"playfully cynical;\" what if we change it to wry?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think wry is definitely the word with Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As to Wolfe's 'not the sort you think' comment, he also said something\nsimilar in an old interview with Larry McCaffrey (don't have it with me...)\nalthough there (and here) it looked like the implication was more that most\npeople have no idea what being a Roman Catholic means (including most\nCatholics). I'm pretty sure Wolfe wouldn't consider himself a heretic (not\nthat most heretics would...) and would, I suspect, fall into church line on\ndefined doctrinal points (which leaves a lot of room for oddness--after\nall, I\ndoubt the Church has made a proclamation one way or the other about the\nidea\nthe Greek gods were real beings of some kind, for which Wolfe has expressed\nsympathy in the past). He's orthodox enough to be a huge Chesterton fan,\nanyway..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I didn't say that Wolfe was/is a heretic. I said that in his grand sword\n'n sorcery revision of the New Testament (including Revelation) he made sure\nthat the name of his hero, as opposed to the names of everyone else in the\ncast, is that of a heretic. (I use revision in the Harold Bloomian sense,\nwhich I consider spot on in this particular case, and I hope I won't have to\nexplain that to anyone, though I dourly suppose that I will.) I *love* the\nfact (new for me) that it's a heretic name." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah. Didn't think you were saying Wolfe was a heretic--I was just spinning off\nthe remembered \"not what you think it means\" comment. Which I think Wolfe is\nactually using to suggest (I think he's said this, too) that most people who\ncall themselves Christians probably don't know enough about Christianity to\nknow if they're heretics or orthodox or not Christians or what-not, even in the\nvaguest sense. I think I was just leaping to clarify Wolfe's statement, which\nat first sounds rather hazy and (in the worst sense) mystical, when actually\nhe's (I think) being insulting, which I prefer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And I would say that despite some terminological and mythological\nborrowings, the BOTNS is philosophically quite anti-Manichean. The\nPancreator\nis fairly clearly fills both the 'God' and 'Creator' slots, and rather than\ndespising the physical as inferior or absolutely corrupt, good old earthy\nSeverian ends up taking off his boots because it's ALL Holy Ground. :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But yes, with reservations about Erebus, Abaia & co., who are echoing the\nmore dualist parts of Revelation. I said that Dr. Talos's play is\nManichaean. Which it certainly is--the gothic tradition to which Baldanders,\nTalos and all horror novelists belong is necessarily dualistic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. Although, I can't place it now, but doesn't Sev. somewhere ponder\nwhether in the end everyone is on the same side, even Abaia and Erebus, etc.\nSomething rather along the lines of Wolfe's statement in the Jordan interview:\n\"I think that Satan does what God wishes him to do; it is just that he doesn't\nwant to. And I think the torturer is in the same position. He is frequently\ndoing what God wants him to do but he is not trying to please God by doing it.\"\nI can't find the reference though--someone who's re-read the whole thing more\nrecently want to try? Come to think of it, doesn't Silk say something like it.\nAs to Talos' play, it's very Manichaean at heart--and Wolfe borrows a lot of\nthings from various Gnostics here and there (since he borrows from just about\nanyone who's ever come up with an interesting mythology...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "FWIW, my personal portrait of Agia and her agenda is the identical twin of\nmantis's, though perhaps mine wouldn't have been phrased so elegantly.\nThough the last time I was agreeable enough to agree with someone, I got\nflamed for it. Grrrrrrr.\n\n-alga" } ] } ] }