{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1193", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1193, "subject": "Excessive Exegesis and Forlesen", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1998-10-16T00:07:46+00:00", "last": "1998-10-16T12:30:17+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter T. Cash", "address": "ptcash at ibm.net" }, "date": "1998-10-16T00:07:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Excessive Exegesis and Forlesen", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought Mr. Borski's lists of hell and computer imagery interesting, but\nthey didn't go anywhere. They seemed like evidence in search of an\nargument. Is Forlesen in hell? Is he a computer program? If so, what's\nthe point? How does that make more sense of the story or give it greater\nmeaning? Can you go any farther down any of these trails?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My own thought (and maybe this is all you were saying and I missed it) is\nthat these details are merely allusive. Wolfe is trying to make us think\nof a hellish, mechanized, inhuman society (and to make us consider to what\nextent our own society is influenced by these forces). I don't think\nwe're supposed to decode that Forlesen is \"actually\" damned or imprisoned\nin a computer (except to the extent that we are meant to ask ourselves,\nAre we damned? Are we trapped in a computer? Is there a meaning to all\nthis?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I couldn't agree more. I think that the search for \"hidden meanings\" must\nhave a stopping point, or it distracts you from the life of the story. It's\nregrettable that Wolfe himself has made comments that encourage this kind of\noverly exhaustive exegesis, that encourage approaching his work as though it\nwere a code that must be broken. When I read Wolfe, I let the story flow\nover me. He makes me almost-remember things, makes me see things I almost\nrecognize, makes me see the outlines of ideas and references I almost\nunderstand. I _like_ this ambiguity. I know I'm missing stuff that others\nenjoy finding...but I really don't care. (Of course, I must confess that\noften when I'm done reading, I wonder, \"Now what the hell was that really\nabout?\". I never figure it out...but it doesn't bother me...much.)\n\nI think that there _are_ some Wolfe works that not only contain puzzles, but\nwhere the puzzle is the point. For example, one is bound to wonder how many\nnights are _really_ contained in \"Seven American Nights\". That's a question\ncentral to the story. Paradoxically, I don't think there's a right answer to\nthis question (despite the fact that I once argued vociferously with alga\nabout precisely this). I think that what's important about this kind of\nliterary puzzle isn't finding the \"right\" answer, but looking at it from\ndifferent aspects, and seeing how many _different_ good answers you can\nfind. I guess I think that this story is more like a kaleidoscope (a little\npsychedelic allusion here) than a puzzle. You look through the tube, and the\npattern fascinates you; you are convinced it is _the_ pattern, the truth.\nThen the pattern shifts, and you see a new one--and fall in love with it.\n\nAs for Forlesen, I think that the theme of memory (or forgetfulness) is an\nimportant one in this story. Like Latro, Forlesen can't remember the day\nbefore; he can't remember if there _was_ a day before this one, and he can't\nremember who he is. (We are told that Forlesen remembers his name, but not\neven what a human looks like.) I would say that the name \"Emanuel\" is\nindicative of divinity, and that it may be that Wolfe wants to remind us\nthat we are divine creatures who are at risk of losing their link to God if\nwe forget ourselves. Then we are truly in Hell.\n\nSgt. Rock" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1998-10-16T12:30:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Excessive Exegesis and Forlesen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In substance, I think that rather than being a puzzle piece where we have to\ndetermine \"what's really going on,\" Forlesen is just what Clute calls it in\nthe Wolfe article in the Encyclopedia of Science Fiction--a superb Kafkaesque\nPARABLE. The hell hints are there, but they don't mean \"he's in Hell! That's\nwhat's really happening!\" Ditto the computer hints. It's not as if in The\nPenal Colony you should be trying to figure out where the colony is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 16, 12:07am, Peter T. Cash wrote:\nSubject: (urth) Excessive Exegesis and Forlesen\nRostrum said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I thought Mr. Borski's lists of hell and computer imagery interesting, but\nthey didn't go anywhere. They seemed like evidence in search of an\nargument. Is Forlesen in hell? Is he a computer program? If so, what's\nthe point? How does that make more sense of the story or give it greater\nmeaning? Can you go any farther down any of these trails?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My own thought (and maybe this is all you were saying and I missed it) is\nthat these details are merely allusive. Wolfe is trying to make us think\nof a hellish, mechanized, inhuman society (and to make us consider to what\nextent our own society is influenced by these forces). I don't think\nwe're supposed to decode that Forlesen is \"actually\" damned or imprisoned\nin a computer (except to the extent that we are meant to ask ourselves,\nAre we damned? Are we trapped in a computer? Is there a meaning to all\nthis?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I couldn't agree more. I think that the search for \"hidden meanings\" must\nhave a stopping point, or it distracts you from the life of the story. It's\nregrettable that Wolfe himself has made comments that encourage this kind of\noverly exhaustive exegesis, that encourage approaching his work as though it\nwere a code that must be broken. When I read Wolfe, I let the story flow\nover me. He makes me almost-remember things, makes me see things I almost\nrecognize, makes me see the outlines of ideas and references I almost\nunderstand. I _like_ this ambiguity. I know I'm missing stuff that others\nenjoy finding...but I really don't care. (Of course, I must confess that\noften when I'm done reading, I wonder, \"Now what the hell was that really\nabout?\". I never figure it out...but it doesn't bother me...much.)\n\nI think that there _are_ some Wolfe works that not only contain puzzles, but\nwhere the puzzle is the point. For example, one is bound to wonder how many\nnights are _really_ contained in \"Seven American Nights\". That's a question\ncentral to the story. Paradoxically, I don't think there's a right answer to\nthis question (despite the fact that I once argued vociferously with alga\nabout precisely this). I think that what's important about this kind of\nliterary puzzle isn't finding the \"right\" answer, but looking at it from\ndifferent aspects, and seeing how many _different_ good answers you can\nfind. I guess I think that this story is more like a kaleidoscope (a little\npsychedelic allusion here) than a puzzle. You look through the tube, and the\npattern fascinates you; you are convinced it is _the_ pattern, the truth.\nThen the pattern shifts, and you see a new one--and fall in love with it.\n\nAs for Forlesen, I think that the theme of memory (or forgetfulness) is an\nimportant one in this story. Like Latro, Forlesen can't remember the day\nbefore; he can't remember if there _was_ a day before this one, and he can't\nremember who he is. (We are told that Forlesen remembers his name, but not\neven what a human looks like.) I would say that the name \"Emanuel\" is\nindicative of divinity, and that it may be that Wolfe wants to remind us\nthat we are divine creatures who are at risk of losing their link to God if\nwe forget ourselves. Then we are truly in Hell.\n\nSgt. Rock" } ] } ] }