{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1198", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1198, "subject": "Agia: Thief?", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "1998-10-16T12:00:15+00:00", "last": "1998-10-16T14:14:39+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1998-10-16T13:45:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Agia: Thief?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm... Rereading that and the section of the theft, I'm now doubtful that Agia\ndid steal the Claw--I'm not sure what she was groping for in the cell, but I\nthink there's a strong suggestion that the Claw may have \"stolen itself\" or\nsomething of the kind. Severian's failure may, in fact, be that he has failed\nto attribute his possession of the Claw to the proper agency. I think it's\nclear that Severian thinks Agia took it, and that at first the reader is meant\nto concur; but I'm not so sure it's actually the case now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 16, 12:00pm, Robert Borski wrote:\nSubject: (urth) Agia: Thief?\nraster having written: \n\n\"But it occurs to me that your theory can still be salvaged. If\nAgia isn't trying to filch the Claw, then she must be after the\nkeys. We know S. has the door keys; where else would he carry them\nbut his sabretache? Agia doubtless assumes that he has the key to\nAgilus's chains as well.\"\n\nActually, I like this notion rather well. And I don't think the coins\ntheory can be totally discounted either, since Agia takes the orichalk Sev\ntosses her.\n\nRe Agia as the Claw's thief. I've already stated I find this difficult to\naccept, and wonder what mantis or other proponents of the Agia-as-thief\ntheory make of the following scene in SWORD. Sev wants the Claw back from\nthe cacogens, and Barbatus asks, \"If it is yours, where did you get it?\"\nSev lays his Agia theory on him, but Barbatus seems almost incensed by\nthis. \"All this is speculation. You did not see this jewel upon the altar,\nnor did you feel the woman's hand when she gave it to you, if in fact she\ndid. _Where did you get it?_\" (p. 271, and these are Wolfe's italics, not\nmine.)\n\nBaldander's answer to the same question--'I got it from the drawer in a\ntable'--also does not seem to satisfy Barbatus, and not much later\nFamulimus says to Sev, as they're walking to their timeship, \"Though you\ndid not now pass our test...\"\n\nIt seems to me that passing \"the test\" somehow involves correctly answering\nthe question, \"Where did you get it?\" What think you?\n\nRe: EMPIRES OF FOLIAGE AND FLOWERS. I have a copy of the non-deluxe edition\nI'll let go for $175.00. It is a nice book, but perhaps too much so--I'm\nafraid to handle it, fearing fingerprints or drool may soil it.\n\nRobert Borski " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at coredcs.com" }, "date": "1998-10-16T12:00:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia: Thief?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "raster having written: \n\n\"But it occurs to me that your theory can still be salvaged. If\nAgia isn't trying to filch the Claw, then she must be after the\nkeys. We know S. has the door keys; where else would he carry them\nbut his sabretache? Agia doubtless assumes that he has the key to\nAgilus's chains as well.\"\n\nActually, I like this notion rather well. And I don't think the coins\ntheory can be totally discounted either, since Agia takes the orichalk Sev\ntosses her.\n\nRe Agia as the Claw's thief. I've already stated I find this difficult to\naccept, and wonder what mantis or other proponents of the Agia-as-thief\ntheory make of the following scene in SWORD. Sev wants the Claw back from\nthe cacogens, and Barbatus asks, \"If it is yours, where did you get it?\"\nSev lays his Agia theory on him, but Barbatus seems almost incensed by\nthis. \"All this is speculation. You did not see this jewel upon the altar,\nnor did you feel the woman's hand when she gave it to you, if in fact she\ndid. _Where did you get it?_\" (p. 271, and these are Wolfe's italics, not\nmine.)\n\nBaldander's answer to the same question--'I got it from the drawer in a\ntable'--also does not seem to satisfy Barbatus, and not much later\nFamulimus says to Sev, as they're walking to their timeship, \"Though you\ndid not now pass our test...\"\n\nIt seems to me that passing \"the test\" somehow involves correctly answering\nthe question, \"Where did you get it?\" What think you?\n\nRe: EMPIRES OF FOLIAGE AND FLOWERS. I have a copy of the non-deluxe edition\nI'll let go for $175.00. It is a nice book, but perhaps too much so--I'm\nafraid to handle it, fearing fingerprints or drool may soil it.\n\nRobert Borski " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "mark_millman at hmco.com" }, "date": "1998-10-16T14:14:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Agia: Thief?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 16 October 1998 at 5:00 PM GMT,\nRobert Borski wrote:\nRe Agia as the Claw's thief. I've already\nstated I find this difficult to accept, and\nwonder what mantis or other proponents\nof the Agia-as-thief theory make of the\nfollowing scene in SWORD. Sev wants\nthe Claw back from the cacogens, and\nBarbatus asks, \"If it is yours, where did\nyou get it?\" Sev lays his Agia theory on\nhim, but Barbatus seems almost incensed\nby this. \"All this is speculation. You did not\nsee this jewel upon the altar, nor did you\nfeel the woman's hand when she gave it to\nyou, if in fact she did. _Where did you get\nit?_\" (p. 271, and these are Wolfe's italics,\nnot mine.)\n\nBaldander's answer to the same question\n--'I got it from the drawer in a table'--also\ndoes not seem to satisfy Barbatus, and\nnot much later Famulimus says to Sev, as\nthey're walking to their timeship, \"Though\nyou did not now pass our test...\"\n\nIt seems to me that passing \"the test\"\nsomehow involves correctly answering\nthe question, \"Where did you get it?\" What\nthink you?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not convinced that the literal question \"Where did\nyou get it?\" is really at issue for Famulimus and Bar-\nbatus here. I think it's the only way that they can ask\nthe real question without giving away the answer; if\nSeverian knows the answer, then the phrasing won't\nthrow him off, but if he doesn't have a clue (as he, in\nfact, proves he hasn't), then he'll try to answer it as\nit stands. Any physical answer--\"Agia planted it\",\n\"it was in the drawer\", even \"well, it just appeared\nthere one day\"--is going to be incorrect. The correct\nanswer is something like, \"It's a part of me.\" But as\nSeverian doesn't yet recognize this, he can't pass\nthe test.\n\nRemember also that the Pelerines search Agia be-\ncause she looks guilty to them, and don't bother\nwith Severian because he appears plainly to be an\ninnocent. There's more to it than just appearances,\ntoo; if I recall correctly, mention is made of the chief\nPelerine's (is she a Mother Superior?) ability to see\nthe truth regardless of circumstance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Re: EMPIRES OF FOLIAGE AND\nFLOWERS. I have a copy of the\nnon-deluxe edition I'll let go for $175.00.\nIt is a nice book, but perhaps too much\nso--I'm afraid to handle it, fearing finger-\nprints or drool may soil it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Drool, Robert? If you love the book that much, I'm\nsurprised that you're willing to let it go at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Robert Borski" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mark Millman" } ] } ] }