{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1202", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1202, "subject": "Digest urth.v019.n023", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1998-10-16T19:20:18+00:00", "last": "1998-10-17T12:49:55+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "al at interport.net" }, "date": "1998-10-16T19:20:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n023", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex,\n\nIf you have the time and patience (I gather you're typing, not scanning),\nwould you please, please put in Simon Magus (he corresponds to Ceryx in our\nbooks) as well as Severian and Severus. I would be so grateful. And don't\nforget to let the CE know right away, even before you send the articles in,\nso they can take them off the \"to do\" list. Thanks!\n\nfrom alga:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But yes, with reservations about Erebus, Abaia & co., who are echoing the\nmore dualist parts of Revelation. I said that Dr. Talos's play is\nManichaean. Which it certainly is--the gothic tradition to which\nBaldanders,\nTalos and all horror novelists belong is necessarily dualistic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "answered by Sarge:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Privatio boni\" won't do for Gothic novels? _Necessarily_ dualistic?\nUmm...well you are a micro-organism of definite opinions, so I'll just\ngently suggest that I'm not convinced.\n\nWhen you say that the play is \"Manichaean\", I take it that you mean it\nimplies a dualistic cosmology or theology. I suppose that it does; but then\nit implies lots of things. Indeed, the play struck me as a somewhat tacky,\nimprovised kitchen-sink composite of just about every apocalyptic-second\ncreation myth that I'd ever heard. (I'm surprised the Aesir don't put in an\nappearance.) I suppose this is in keeping with a play-within-a-novel that\nis\na \"grand sword 'n sorcery revision of the New Testament\". I really like\nthat\nassessment, by the way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and Alex:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Necessarily seems a bit much to me, as well. Maybe necessarily somewhat\nsuggestive of dualism... Come to think of it, Lovecraft isn't\ndualistic--there's only a dark side..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "replies:\n\nFirst, thank you, Sarge, I like that phrase myself, come to think.\n\nManichaeism: But Sarge, that's just exactly what Mani cobbled together, a\nragbag of a religion, borrowing from everything he knew of Buddhism,\nZoroastrianism, Christianity and Marcionism (Marcion taught that there were\ntwo gods: capricious old Yaweh of the OT was similar to the Gnostic\nDemiurge, while Jesus was son of the True God whose time would come). If\nhe'd known about Thor, he'd have thrown him in too. Mani would have been a\ngreat scriptwriter for \"Xena: Warrior Princess.\" And so would Dr. Talos, if\nhe got a decent editor.\n\nMani's dualism came from the Zoroastrians (who supplied Meschia and Mechiane\nto Dr. Talos) and he added the concept of Light vs. Darkness, so beloved of\ngothic writers. Alex, you can't say that there is only Dark in Lovecraft,\nfor opposed to that is the normal world, represented, in Hollywood versions,\nby pretty suburban streets. If you don't have a norm--Innsmouth or Arkham\nbefore the horrors came--where's the scare? The Amurican Way of Life, that's\nthe Light. At least in novels.\n\nI will back-pedal a bit on \"necessarily,\" but only a bit. Since the end of\nthe 19th century, the Dark is not necessarily a Christian dark, in fact most\noften it isn't. Despite the crucifix hocus-pocus, we do not think of\nvampires as demons of Satan; they inhabit their own Dark. Werewolves are\nfolkloric, not Christian. Hyde, though a demon, is a metaphor for what Freud\nwould call the id, not a damned soul. Dorian Grey hides Hyde's face behind\nhis own (sorry about that sentence), but again it's extra-Christian.\n\nNevertheless, if only for convenience of term, I would argue that the gothic\ntradition is Manichaean--with all the implicit messiness. Writers like C.S.\nLewis and Tolkien, who tidy up the mess, have made this even clearer, but\nthey are far ounumbered by the others. King now, a dualist to the Dark\nUntidy Core.\n\nI don't want to get too off-topic here, so let me segue back. Once again, I\n*don't* think Briah and Yesod form a dualist universe. Yes, I do think, as\nSev appears to do, that it is all One Big Thing. I do keep wondering about\nhow Abaia and Baldanders are faring under the New Sun, fine, I think--uh-oh!\nIf it ain't One Thing, it's Another.\n\nBut nevertheless, Dr. Talos and his play do represent apocalyptic dualism,\nArmagedon, Ragnarok, whatever. And it may be a mess, Sarge, but it belongs\ntoo.\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1998-10-17T12:49:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n023", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I'm typing--I could probably get my hands on a scanner but the lengths the\nSev. articles were, it wasn't worth the hassle. I've sent those in already...\nI'm really surprised Simon Magus hasn't been done already--before I sign on for\nthat one I'd better check how long it is--my next week at school will be\nlargely occupied with grading homeworks, editing a group project, and writing a\npaper on T. S. Eliot's Ash Wednesday--but I'm guessing Simon Magus can't be too\nlong..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 16, 7:20pm, Alice Turner wrote:\nSubject: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n023\nAlex,\n\nIf you have the time and patience (I gather you're typing, not scanning),\nwould you please, please put in Simon Magus (he corresponds to Ceryx in our\nbooks) as well as Severian and Severus. I would be so grateful. And don't\nforget to let the CE know right away, even before you send the articles in,\nso they can take them off the \"to do\" list. Thanks!\n\nfrom alga:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But yes, with reservations about Erebus, Abaia & co., who are echoing the\nmore dualist parts of Revelation. I said that Dr. Talos's play is\nManichaean. Which it certainly is--the gothic tradition to which\nBaldanders,\nTalos and all horror novelists belong is necessarily dualistic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "answered by Sarge:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Privatio boni\" won't do for Gothic novels? _Necessarily_ dualistic?\nUmm...well you are a micro-organism of definite opinions, so I'll just\ngently suggest that I'm not convinced.\n\nWhen you say that the play is \"Manichaean\", I take it that you mean it\nimplies a dualistic cosmology or theology. I suppose that it does; but then\nit implies lots of things. Indeed, the play struck me as a somewhat tacky,\nimprovised kitchen-sink composite of just about every apocalyptic-second\ncreation myth that I'd ever heard. (I'm surprised the Aesir don't put in an\nappearance.) I suppose this is in keeping with a play-within-a-novel that\nis\na \"grand sword 'n sorcery revision of the New Testament\". I really like\nthat\nassessment, by the way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and Alex:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Necessarily seems a bit much to me, as well. Maybe necessarily somewhat\nsuggestive of dualism... Come to think of it, Lovecraft isn't\ndualistic--there's only a dark side..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "replies:\n\nFirst, thank you, Sarge, I like that phrase myself, come to think.\n\nManichaeism: But Sarge, that's just exactly what Mani cobbled together, a\nragbag of a religion, borrowing from everything he knew of Buddhism,\nZoroastrianism, Christianity and Marcionism (Marcion taught that there were\ntwo gods: capricious old Yaweh of the OT was similar to the Gnostic\nDemiurge, while Jesus was son of the True God whose time would come). If\nhe'd known about Thor, he'd have thrown him in too. Mani would have been a\ngreat scriptwriter for \"Xena: Warrior Princess.\" And so would Dr. Talos, if\nhe got a decent editor.\n\nMani's dualism came from the Zoroastrians (who supplied Meschia and Mechiane\nto Dr. Talos) and he added the concept of Light vs. Darkness, so beloved of\ngothic writers. Alex, you can't say that there is only Dark in Lovecraft,\nfor opposed to that is the normal world, represented, in Hollywood versions,\nby pretty suburban streets. If you don't have a norm--Innsmouth or Arkham\nbefore the horrors came--where's the scare? The Amurican Way of Life, that's\nthe Light. At least in novels.\n\nI will back-pedal a bit on \"necessarily,\" but only a bit. Since the end of\nthe 19th century, the Dark is not necessarily a Christian dark, in fact most\noften it isn't. Despite the crucifix hocus-pocus, we do not think of\nvampires as demons of Satan; they inhabit their own Dark. Werewolves are\nfolkloric, not Christian. Hyde, though a demon, is a metaphor for what Freud\nwould call the id, not a damned soul. Dorian Grey hides Hyde's face behind\nhis own (sorry about that sentence), but again it's extra-Christian.\n\nNevertheless, if only for convenience of term, I would argue that the gothic\ntradition is Manichaean--with all the implicit messiness. Writers like C.S.\nLewis and Tolkien, who tidy up the mess, have made this even clearer, but\nthey are far ounumbered by the others. King now, a dualist to the Dark\nUntidy Core.\n\nI don't want to get too off-topic here, so let me segue back. Once again, I\n*don't* think Briah and Yesod form a dualist universe. Yes, I do think, as\nSev appears to do, that it is all One Big Thing. I do keep wondering about\nhow Abaia and Baldanders are faring under the New Sun, fine, I think--uh-oh!\nIf it ain't One Thing, it's Another.\n\nBut nevertheless, Dr. Talos and his play do represent apocalyptic dualism,\nArmagedon, Ragnarok, whatever. And it may be a mess, Sarge, but it belongs\ntoo.\n\n-alga" } ] } ] }