{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1208", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1208, "subject": "Terminus est--another military procurement fiasco?", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "1998-10-18T22:29:53+00:00", "last": "1998-10-28T01:09:44+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter T. Cash", "address": "ptcash at ibm.net" }, "date": "1998-10-18T22:29:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Terminus est--another military procurement fiasco?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Robert Borski\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anybody have any notions how Terminus Est came into the possession of\nPalaemon? The sword, after all, is no mere carnificial sword, but a\nvaluable weapon, owing to its smithing by Jovinian (Agilus claims it's\nworth a villa). But Palaemon is a mere torturer and the guild itself" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This brings to mind some thoughts I had on Terminus Est when I first read\nabout it. The sword is described as having a hollowed blade, partially\nfilled with mercury (with the rest of the space consisting of a near\nvaccuum, I assume). Allegedly, this makes the swing really powerful while\nkeeping down the weight of the sword, because centrifugal force causes the\nmercury to shift to the point end of the blade, adding mass and, therefore,\nmomentum.\n\nI have my doubts about whether such a sword would really work, even if we\nignore the structural problems of a hollow blade (it would either be weak or\nvery thick, I think). As you swing the blade, there is little centrifugal\nforce being exerted at the hilt, since it's moving slowly compared to the\npoint. Thus, by the time the mercury gets to the tip end of the blade, your\nswing would likely have been completed (assuming the mercury gets that far\nat all). On the other hand, if we assume that the mercury gets there\nquickly, I think it would have the effect of increasing the effort required\nto make the swing, since you must now accelerate the mass of the mercury\nalong with the rest of the blade.\n\nIn any case, having the balance of the blade shifting about during combat\nwould be very undesirable. It would make the force required to move the\nblade unpredictable, as would be the momentum of the blade. In other words,\nyou might not be able to stop the swing where you want it, or move the blade\nquickly enought to parry. The Sergeant prefers plain steel.\n\nSo my answer to your question, Robert, is that it was military surplus. The\narmy got rid of the thing as soon as it could, and sold it quite cheaply.\n\nSgt. Rock" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at crossover.com" }, "date": "1998-10-19T12:48:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Terminus est--another military procurement fiasco?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:29 PM 10/18/98 -0700, Robert Borski [Sgt. Rock] wrote:\nI have my doubts about whether such a sword would really work, even if we\nignore the structural problems of a hollow blade (it would either be weak or\nvery thick, I think). As you swing the blade, there is little centrifugal\nforce being exerted at the hilt, since it's moving slowly compared to the\npoint. Thus, by the time the mercury gets to the tip end of the blade, your\nswing would likely have been completed (assuming the mercury gets that far\nat all). On the other hand, if we assume that the mercury gets there\nquickly, I think it would have the effect of increasing the effort required\nto make the swing, since you must now accelerate the mass of the mercury\nalong with the rest of the blade." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Think about the stroke involved in beheading a prisoner. The sword is\nraised overhead and brought down in a smooth circle. Gravity, not the\ncentrifugal effect, is what moves the quicksilver. As the sword passes the\npoint at which it is horizontal to the ground, the tip becomes much\nheavier, and gravity brings the mercury into the tip. Thus, the lichtor can\nraise the sword slowly and bring it down very quickly.\n\nIt would be worse in a swordfight than a standard sword, though, for all\nthe reasons you explained:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In any case, having the balance of the blade shifting about during combat\nwould be very undesirable. It would make the force required to move the\nblade unpredictable, as would be the momentum of the blade. In other words,\nyou might not be able to stop the swing where you want it, or move the blade\nquickly enought to parry. The Sergeant prefers plain steel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So my answer to your question, Robert, is that it was military surplus. The\narmy got rid of the thing as soon as it could, and sold it quite cheaply." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a ceremonial sword of office. Who other than the torturers would want it?\n\nWombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at crossover.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://ebbs.english.vt.edu/olp/nyrsf/nyrsf.html" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Stephenson", "address": "pws at ibmth.df.unipi.it" }, "date": "1998-10-20T07:58:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Terminus est--another military procurement fiasco?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Kevin J. Maroney\" wrote:\nThink about the stroke involved in beheading a prisoner. The sword is\nraised overhead and brought down in a smooth circle. Gravity, not the\ncentrifugal effect, is what moves the quicksilver. As the sword passes the\npoint at which it is horizontal to the ground, the tip becomes much\nheavier, and gravity brings the mercury into the tip." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That can't be quite right, since until it's horizontal gravity is\nkeeping the mercury at the hilt end. Long ago I used to play with\nthings where what I was later taught to call `inertia' (or, in a\nrather supercilious physicist's tone, `so-called centrifugal force'\n--- the superciliousness was implied rather than actually expressed,\nyou know how these things work) where a loose object would move to the\nend of the stick by the time I'd got it horizontal. I would contend\nthat if that *doesn't* happen here, the mercury is moving too slowly\nto make it useful when cutting people's (such as supercilious\nphysicists') heads off. The real question is the dynamics of the\nmercury in the groove. Also fairly long ago, I (or a brother) had a\nmercury maze where you rolled a ball of mercury around. I suppose\nthat in the sword it would be ball-like, too, so it would behave\nbetter than, say, water. So maybe it would work after all. I've had\ndoubts, but I expect Wolfe as an engineer would know better than a\nsupercilious physicist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thus, the lichtor can\nraise the sword slowly and bring it down very quickly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what gravity's for in any case. In the total process of\nlifting and lowering through a full cycle, only the weight counts.\nThe theory is that the mercury gives it that last bit of oomph just\nwhere it's a going through some stiff bits of bone and gristle in\nsomeone's neck. I'd love to see this demonstrated... err, maybe not\non a human." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a ceremonial sword of office. Who other than the torturers would want it" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, unless some eccentric armiger had it made because he thought it\nwould be useful and found it wasn't. (SDI?)\n\nI can think of one use... classical art is full of pictures of Judith\nabout to cut off the head of Holofernes, or just after (but not\nusually in the middle). In particular, there's a statue by Donatello\nin the Palazzo Vecchio in Florence with a particularly weedy Judith\nwaving an overgrown dagger at the massive trunk of Holofernes' neck,\nand it all seems a little futile. A decent carnifex' sword would\ncertainly help.\n\n(There's another Judith and Holofernes by Artemisia Gentileschi, and\nthis time it's quite clear who's got the upper hand. It's about to be\nvery, very messy.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Peter Stephenson Tel: +39 050 844536\nWWW: http://www.ifh.de/~pws/\nDipartimento di Fisica, Via Buonarotti 2, 56100 Pisa, Italy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-10-28T01:09:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Terminus est--another military procurement fiasco?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Peter T. Cash wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Robert Borski\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anybody have any notions how Terminus Est came into the possession of\nPalaemon? The sword, after all, is no mere carnificial sword, but a\nvaluable weapon, owing to its smithing by Jovinian (Agilus claims it's\nworth a villa). But Palaemon is a mere torturer and the guild itself" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This brings to mind some thoughts I had on Terminus Est when I first read\nabout it. The sword is described as having a hollowed blade, partially\nfilled with mercury (with the rest of the space consisting of a near\nvaccuum, I assume). Allegedly, this makes the swing really powerful while\nkeeping down the weight of the sword, because centrifugal force causes the\nmercury to shift to the point end of the blade, adding mass and, therefore,\nmomentum.\n\nI have my doubts about whether such a sword would really work, even if we\nignore the structural problems of a hollow blade (it would either be weak or\nvery thick, I think). As you swing the blade, there is little centrifugal\nforce being exerted at the hilt, since it's moving slowly compared to the\npoint. Thus, by the time the mercury gets to the tip end of the blade, your\nswing would likely have been completed (assuming the mercury gets that far\nat all). On the other hand, if we assume that the mercury gets there\nquickly, I think it would have the effect of increasing the effort required\nto make the swing, since you must now accelerate the mass of the mercury\nalong with the rest of the blade.\n\nIn any case, having the balance of the blade shifting about during combat\nwould be very undesirable. It would make the force required to move the\nblade unpredictable, as would be the momentum of the blade. In other words,\nyou might not be able to stop the swing where you want it, or move the blade\nquickly enought to parry. The Sergeant prefers plain steel.\n\nSo my answer to your question, Robert, is that it was military surplus. The\narmy got rid of the thing as soon as it could, and sold it quite cheaply.\n\nSgt. Rock" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Feh! Are smilies in use on this list. Should there be a few here?\n\nAs best I can remember the reason given for the mercur was that in holding the\nblade upright the balance would be nearer the heilt making it easier to keep\nstill while the, possibly long, ceremonial bits were going on. The weight then\ntips towards the end during the downstroke gifing some advantage in momentum\nwhen the blade meets the unfortunate neck.\n\nThe one problem I can see with this is Sev's description of the 'usual' manner\nof execution for women, bound in a chair and with a horzontal stroke. That\nwould be most awkward with a sword balanced towards the tip.\n\nApart from all that Terminus Est is explicitly an executioners blade, not a\nmilitary piece at all.\n\nMatthew" } ] } ] }