{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1209", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1209, "subject": "Dualism & horror", "messages": 6, "voices": 5, "first": "1998-10-18T23:04:33+00:00", "last": "1998-10-19T16:27:51+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter T. Cash", "address": "ptcash at ibm.net" }, "date": "1998-10-18T23:04:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dualism & horror", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "from alga:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Manichaeism: But Sarge, that's just exactly what Mani cobbled together, a\nragbag of a religion, borrowing from everything he knew of Buddhism,\nZoroastrianism, Christianity and Marcionism (Marcion taught that there were\ntwo gods: capricious old Yaweh of the OT was similar to the Gnostic\nDemiurge, while Jesus was son of the True God whose time would come). If\nhe'd known about Thor, he'd have thrown him in too. Mani would have been a\ngreat scriptwriter for \"Xena: Warrior Princess.\" And so would Dr. Talos, if\nhe got a decent editor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know. Mani was the L. Ron Hubbard of the third century." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mani's dualism came from the Zoroastrians (who supplied Meschia and\nMechiane\nto Dr. Talos) and he added the concept of Light vs. Darkness, so beloved of\ngothic writers. Alex, you can't say that there is only Dark in Lovecraft,\nfor opposed to that is the normal world, represented, in Hollywood\nversions,\nby pretty suburban streets. If you don't have a norm--Innsmouth or Arkham\nbefore the horrors came--where's the scare? The Amurican Way of Life,\nthat's\nthe Light. At least in novels." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alga, your thesis that horror is inherently (will that do instead of\n\"necessarily\"?) dualistic is so thought-provoking that I hate to spoil\nthings by finding fault with it. However, I would venture that if suburbia\nis the light that opposes the Great Darkness, then we've got a pretty weak\ndualism. This light is a dim bulb, this divinity is one of communion by\nwater and not wine. It is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob\nilluminating this place. It's George Westinghouse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I will back-pedal a bit on \"necessarily,\" but only a bit. Since the end of\nthe 19th century, the Dark is not necessarily a Christian dark, in fact\nmost\noften it isn't. Despite the crucifix hocus-pocus, we do not think of\nvampires as demons of Satan; they inhabit their own Dark. Werewolves are\nfolkloric, not Christian. Hyde, though a demon, is a metaphor for what\nFreud\nwould call the id, not a damned soul. Dorian Grey hides Hyde's face behind\nhis own (sorry about that sentence), but again it's extra-Christian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"How about \"pagan\" instead of \"extra-Christian\"? I don't think this darkness\nis anything new; perhaps after the 19th century it becomes \"neo-paganism\",\nthat's all. I would argue that any work that doesn't have a Christian\ndimension but does deal with supernatural evil is pagan; any dualism is\nstrictly secondary and quite uninteresting. (I'm not saying that pagan works\nnecessarily lack value or interest, of course.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nevertheless, if only for convenience of term, I would argue that the\ngothic\ntradition is Manichaean--with all the implicit messiness. Writers like C.S.\nLewis and Tolkien, who tidy up the mess, have made this even clearer, but\nthey are far ounumbered by the others. King now, a dualist to the Dark\nUntidy Core." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Never having read King and having not the slightest desire to do so, I'll\nhave to withold judgment. I do believe you're helping me understand why\nI've always despised the horror genre. Since I do believe in the God of\nAbraham, this \"supernatural evil\" stuff seems a trifle silly to me; I just\ndon't get it. I know that God permits evil in the world--but it's evil done\nby us humans--it is not supernatural. If Satan exists, he's void, in the\nsense of having no substance--I believe the common metaphor is say he is\nlike a shadow. (Hmmm....shadows in Wolfe's works...not an uncommon theme.\nHmmm.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But nevertheless, Dr. Talos and his play do represent apocalyptic dualism,\nArmagedon, Ragnarok, whatever. And it may be a mess, Sarge, but it belongs\ntoo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never meant to say it doesn't. Just that it's a mess, and maybe a bit of\nself-parody contained within the larger work.\n\nSgt. Rock" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-10-19T08:46:18+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Dualism & horror", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Peter T. Cash wrote:\nAlex, you can't say that there is only Dark in Lovecraft,\nfor opposed to that is the normal world, represented, in Hollywood\nversions,\nby pretty suburban streets. If you don't have a norm--Innsmouth or Arkham\nbefore the horrors came--where's the scare? The Amurican Way of Life,\nthat's\nthe Light. At least in novels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alga, your thesis that horror is inherently (will that do instead of\n\"necessarily\"?) dualistic is so thought-provoking that I hate to spoil\nthings by finding fault with it. However, I would venture that if suburbia\nis the light that opposes the Great Darkness, then we've got a pretty weak\ndualism. This light is a dim bulb, this divinity is one of communion by\nwater and not wine. It is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob\nilluminating this place. It's George Westinghouse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought it amusing that in Stephen King's book _Salem's Lot_, the good\nalmost seems to draw power parasitically from the evil. I seem to\nremember a scene where the good guys pour holy water on their limbs or\ntools or something and when they get to where the coffins are hiding find\nthat they have the extraordinary strength necessary to break in.\n\nMy first thought was, \"How come that doesn't work when building a church\nor a homeless shelter?\"\n\nMy impression is that horror is not dualist because either there is no\ncomparable Good to oppose the Evil or the Good is so far superior to the\nEvil that it doesn't need to stoop to the same methods to oppose it.\n\nI haven't read much horror, however. Are there many horror novels that\nhave both a supernatural Good and Evil but the Evil wins? (Not counting\nstories where the apparent \"Evil\" turns out to be morally superior to the\napparent \"Good\".) \n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "mark_millman at hmco.com" }, "date": "1998-10-19T10:16:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Dualism & horror", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 19 October 1998 at 6:04 AM GMT,\nSergeant Rock (Peter T. Cash) wrote:\n\"How about \"pagan\" instead of \"extra-\nChristian\"? I don't think this darkness\nis anything new; perhaps after the 19th\ncentury it becomes \"neo-paganism\",\nthat's all. I would argue that any work\nthat doesn't have a Christian dimension\nbut does deal with supernatural evil is\npagan; any dualism is strictly secondary\nand quite uninteresting. (I'm not saying\nthat pagan works necessarily lack value\nor interest, of course.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I'll grant you that Islamic and Zoroastrian\nworks aren't typically of great importance in our\nculture, Sergeant, I'd hesitate to suggest that\nJudaism is either pagan or contains Christian\nelements. If you want to argue that supernatural\nevil in Judaism is a relic of pre-Jewish Semitic\npaganism, I'll agree with you; but then I'll insist\nthat Christian supernatural evil derives from a\nmuch wider variety of assimilated and co-opted\npagan sources. As for high theology, which can\nbe far removed from Christian folk belief, and\neven a great deal of doctrine . . . I can't speak\nto that.\n\nSergeant Rock continued:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Satan exists, he's void, in the sense\nof having no substance--I believe the\ncommon metaphor is say he is like a\nshadow. (Hmmm....shadows in Wolfe's\nworks...not an uncommon theme.\nHmmm.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Satan is void and without substance, there's\na strong implication that all the other members\nof God's heavenly hosts are as well; the book\nof Job makes Satan's existence, if not his\nexact role, quite explicit. And, while it's not\nclear whether God gave Satan only the man-\nagement or the actual performance of Job's\nmisfortunes, there is more than a suggestion\nof agency.\n\nBut I do very much like your observation on\nshadows.\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-10-19T16:27:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Dualism & horror", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apologies for prolonging a thread that steered due west of topic some\ntime ago, but this is getting interesting:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alga wrote:\nAlex, you can't say that there is only Dark in Lovecraft,\nfor opposed to that is the normal world, represented, in Hollywood versions,\nby pretty suburban streets. If you don't have a norm--Innsmouth or Arkham\nbefore the horrors came--where's the scare? The Amurican Way of Life, that's\nthe Light. At least in novels." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm on Alex's side. I don't think you can say that the normal world\n\"opposes\" the Dark, in a dualistic sense, because in Lovecraft's fiction\nthe normal world _is_ the Dark. What we think of as normality is\ninvariably revealed to be a delusion, or merely the narrowest slice of a\nmuch bigger, scarier universe. As for \"Innsmouth or Arkham before the\nhorrors came\", it's another basic tenet of the stories that the horror\nwas there _first_, inhabiting this world long before humanity turned up.\nAny pretty suburban streets are just a part of a transient blip in\nreality, cosmically speaking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sgt. Rock wrote:\n...I do believe you're helping me understand why\nI've always despised the horror genre. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting choice of pejorative there. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since I do believe in the God of\nAbraham, this \"supernatural evil\" stuff seems a trifle silly to me;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the usual expression is \"supernatural horror\" rather than\n\"supernatural evil\". Most of the more highly-regarded horror writers\nlong ago grew out of the simplistic good\\evil trap. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rostum wrote:\nI haven't read much horror, however." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You should! There's some great writing out there. (And an even huger\namount of crap, naturally.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Are there many horror novels that\nhave both a supernatural Good and Evil but the Evil wins?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Off the top of my head... none (but there must be a few). The rule seems\nto be that if you have a supernatural Good, it has to win. That's\nprobably why the horror I prefer doesn't have such feeble concepts in it\nin the first place." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1998-10-19T14:23:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Dualism & horror", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Continuing the dualism & horror thread (it's not off topic--one of the essays\nin Castle of Days talks about the issue, so there's our Wolfe link. I don't\nremember the essay in detail, but one part goes something like \"Fantasy has the\ngods under God, while in horror Satan kills and is killed by Cthulu.\"\n\nTony Ellis wrote-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm on Alex's side. I don't think you can say that the normal world\n\"opposes\" the Dark, in a dualistic sense, because in Lovecraft's fiction\nthe normal world _is_ the Dark. What we think of as normality is\ninvariably revealed to be a delusion, or merely the narrowest slice of a\nmuch bigger, scarier universe. As for \"Innsmouth or Arkham before the\nhorrors came\", it's another basic tenet of the stories that the horror\nwas there _first_, inhabiting this world long before humanity turned up.\nAny pretty suburban streets are just a part of a transient blip in\nreality, cosmically speaking." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, if anything, Lovecraft's world is a kind of opposite of non-dualist\northodoxy--the only Real Game in Town is the Utter Abyssmal Eldritch Things\nfrom the Deep. I agree with Tony that (A) the horrors are, as Lovecraft\nconstantly emphasizes, MUCH older than humanity and (B) even if Innsmouth and\nArkham weren't just upstarts, they are hardly a real force for good. The only\ndefense against the horror is ignorance (I think that's a paraphrase of part of\n\"The Call of Cthulu\"). If the Dualism is Cthulu & Co. vs. human ignorance,\nthat's a pretty weak Dualism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, the usual expression is \"supernatural horror\" rather than\n\"supernatural evil\". Most of the more highly-regarded horror writers\nlong ago grew out of the simplistic good\\evil trap. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps out of the simplistic version of it--I think there are some good horror\nwriters who still make use of the concepts. Even a supremely ambiguous writer\nlike Robert Aickman (my favorite) often suggests, in his quiet way, that\nsomething is evil--the dog in \"The Same Dog,\" or Mr. Millar in \"Meeting Mr.\nMillar\" or Parliament in \"My Poor Friend.\" In fact, part of Aickman's genius\nis the way he subtly equates certain social trends with a kind of invisible and\nincomprehensible Evil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Off the top of my head... none (but there must be a few). The rule seems\nto be that if you have a supernatural Good, it has to win. That's\nprobably why the horror I prefer doesn't have such feeble concepts in it\nin the first place." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wouldn't call the concept of supernatural good a feeble concept--maybe seldom\nwell done in a horror novel, but at least outside that context it's been one of\nthe most powerful ideas in history (and in literature). I'd even stretch the\ndefiniton and say Dante's Inferno is a brilliant work of horror that (in the\nend, even without the Purgatorio and Paradisio) is based on the concept of a\nsupernatural good--\"Divine justice moved my maker.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1998-10-19T14:36:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Dualism & horror", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mark Millman wrote:\nWhile I'll grant you that Islamic and Zoroastrian\nworks aren't typically of great importance in our\nculture, Sergeant, I'd hesitate to suggest that\nJudaism is either pagan or contains Christian\nelements. If you want to argue that supernatural\nevil in Judaism is a relic of pre-Jewish Semitic\npaganism, I'll agree with you; but then I'll insist\nthat Christian supernatural evil derives from a\nmuch wider variety of assimilated and co-opted\npagan sources. As for high theology, which can\nbe far removed from Christian folk belief, and\neven a great deal of doctrine . . . I can't speak\nto that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, Judaic works would be another category. Although I can't really think of\na work from a Jewish perspective involving a supernatural evil right off\nhand... And I suspect that any I could think of would have an attitude to it\nnot unlike some Christian works. Judaism may not have Christian elements, but\nI'd be fairly silly as a Christian to deny their are Jewish elements in\nChristianity... Either way, you have some similarity of the view of evil (not\nidentity, at all, but similarity)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergeant Rock continued:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Satan exists, he's void, in the sense\nof having no substance--I believe the\ncommon metaphor is say he is like a\nshadow. (Hmmm....shadows in Wolfe's\nworks...not an uncommon theme.\nHmmm.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Satan is void and without substance, there's\na strong implication that all the other members\nof God's heavenly hosts are as well; the book\nof Job makes Satan's existence, if not his\nexact role, quite explicit. And, while it's not\nclear whether God gave Satan only the man-\nagement or the actual performance of Job's\nmisfortunes, there is more than a suggestion\nof agency.\n\nBut I do very much like your observation on\nshadows." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, although evil is a perversion of good, it does EXIST -- Satan has a will\nof his own--in the end he's \"without substance\" in one sense, but I think he's\nan agent capable of action and indeed, in orthodox thought, of great power in\nthe world. Sins, after all, arise out of an improper degree or object of love,\nbut still exist (by drawing substance from the good). This is sloppy language\nof course, but then St. Thomas can sound sloppy talking about the Mystery of\nEvil (or Free Will, which is inextricably linked)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] } ] }