{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1211", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1211, "subject": "Digest urth.v019.n026", "messages": 10, "voices": 8, "first": "1998-10-19T10:32:24+00:00", "last": "1998-10-22T17:55:28+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kieran Mullen", "address": "kieran at phyast.nhn.ou.edu" }, "date": "1998-10-19T13:08:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n026", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Michael Straight \nSubject: Re: (urth) Dualism & horror\nDate: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:46:18 -0400 (EDT)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I haven't read much horror, however. Are there many horror novels that\nhave both a supernatural Good and Evil but the Evil wins? (Not counting\nstories where the apparent \"Evil\" turns out to be morally superior to the\napparent \"Good\".) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The classic example is the \"Black Easter\" series by James Blish. It's\nbrilliant.\n\n One candidate is \"Godstalk\" by P.C. Hogdell. In it the \"heroes\" are\nsuperhuman warriors (sort of like angels) who have been fighting Evil for\nmillenia, and have been constantly losing. God's not really talking to\nthem anymore, and they've been fighting a retreating action, losing world\nafter world. Things are getting pretty desperate. It's a bit of a cheat\nthough since the series has not really ended. But I like the world she\nhas invented. (I'm a big fan of theological science fiction).\n\n Hmmm... In the original \"Nightmare on Elm Street\" movie, the villain\nwins. There are countless horror stories/movies/tv shows where the\nvillain secretly survives (shown in the last few seconds of the story).\nThe new Outer Limits has many episodes in which the villains win (it's\nrather depressing and IMHO often poorly written). There are a number of\nsf books in which the Bomb goes off and everything ends.\n\n Kieran Mullen\n\n \n Kieran Mullen email: kieran at mail.nhn.ou.edu\n Dept. of Physics and Astronomy phone: (405) 325-3961\n The University of Oklahoma FAX: (405) 325-7557\n Norman, OK 73019, USA http://www.nhn.ou.edu/~kieran/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "al at interport.net" }, "date": "1998-10-19T20:05:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n026", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alga, your thesis that horror is inherently (will that do instead of\n\"necessarily\"?) dualistic is so thought-provoking that I hate to spoil\nthings by finding fault with it. However, I would venture that if suburbia\nis the light that opposes the Great Darkness, then we've got a pretty weak\ndualism. This light is a dim bulb, this divinity is one of communion by\nwater and not wine. It is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob\nilluminating this place. It's George Westinghouse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No argument, but the \"horror\" world is not the real world. Since the\nauthor's intent is to give frissons to the reader, everything, good and bad,\nis exaggerated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I will back-pedal a bit on \"necessarily,\" but only a bit. Since the end of\nthe 19th century, the Dark is not necessarily a Christian dark, in fact\nmost\noften it isn't. Despite the crucifix hocus-pocus, we do not think of\nvampires as demons of Satan; they inhabit their own Dark. Werewolves are\nfolkloric, not Christian. Hyde, though a demon, is a metaphor for what\nFreud\nwould call the id, not a damned soul. Dorian Grey hides Hyde's face behind\nhis own (sorry about that sentence), but again it's extra-Christian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"How about \"pagan\" instead of \"extra-Christian\"? I don't think this\ndarkness\nis anything new; perhaps after the 19th century it becomes \"neo-paganism\",\nthat's all. I would argue that any work that doesn't have a Christian\ndimension but does deal with supernatural evil is pagan; any dualism is\nstrictly secondary and quite uninteresting. (I'm not saying that pagan\nworks\nnecessarily lack value or interest, of course.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think \"pagan\" is too specific. Besides, some horror writers (eg. Anne\nRice) are still using the Christian tropes of the early 19th century.\nThey're only set decoration, but the whole field is awfully stagey." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Never having read King and having not the slightest desire to do so, I'll\nhave to withold judgment. I do believe you're helping me understand why\nI've always despised the horror genre. Since I do believe in the God of\nAbraham, this \"supernatural evil\" stuff seems a trifle silly to me; I just\ndon't get it. I know that God permits evil in the world--but it's evil done\nby us humans--it is not supernatural. If Satan exists, he's void, in the\nsense of having no substance--I believe the common metaphor is say he is\nlike a shadow. (Hmmm....shadows in Wolfe's works...not an uncommon theme.\nHmmm.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Sarge, there are volcanic eruptions, and being struck by lightning and\nbirth defects and hereditary diseases...um, to get back to the subject, in\nthe horror *genre* if Satan or a flunky shows up he generally does have\nsubstance. You're arguing a sophisticated religious definition that goes all\nthe way back to the Church Fathers. I'm talking pop lit, or movies. But the\nShadow, yes, in context that is interesting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But nevertheless, Dr. Talos and his play do represent apocalyptic dualism,\nArmagedon, Ragnarok, whatever. And it may be a mess, Sarge, but it belongs\ntoo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I never meant to say it doesn't. Just that it's a mess, and maybe a bit of\nself-parody contained within the larger work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, self-parody is a good point. Somthing more could be made of that--one\nof mantis's essays.\n\n\nfrom Mark Milman:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I do very much like your observation on\nshadows." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Et moi." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alga wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Alex, you can't say that there is only Dark in Lovecraft,\nfor opposed to that is the normal world, represented, in Hollywood\nversions,\nby pretty suburban streets. If you don't have a norm--Innsmouth or Arkham\nbefore the horrors came--where's the scare? The Amurican Way of Life,\nthat's\nthe Light. At least in novels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm on Alex's side. I don't think you can say that the normal world\n\"opposes\" the Dark, in a dualistic sense, because in Lovecraft's fiction\nthe normal world _is_ the Dark. What we think of as normality is\ninvariably revealed to be a delusion, or merely the narrowest slice of a\nmuch bigger, scarier universe. As for \"Innsmouth or Arkham before the\nhorrors came\", it's another basic tenet of the stories that the horror\nwas there _first_, inhabiting this world long before humanity turned up.\nAny pretty suburban streets are just a part of a transient blip in\nreality, cosmically speaking." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't pretend to be a Lovecraft expert (though I have a friend who is; I'm\nnot going to ask him about this, however) but still, you have to have a\nLight that has beaten the Dark back for a while, don't you? During that\nblip? It does seem to me that, as a generalization, Good v. Bad works pretty\nwell for horror. You start with a norm and discover that Things Are Not What\nThey Seem. Easy to parody. Jane Austen did it in -Mansfield Park- a long\ntime ago.\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mike", "address": "lsanto at concentric.net" }, "date": "1998-10-20T07:20:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n026", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Howdy all,\n With regard to the military effectiveness of Terminus Est..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Kevin J. Maroney\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Terminus est--another military procurement fiasco?\nDate: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:48:45 -0400\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\nIn-Reply-To: <199810190332.UAA06718 at lists1.best.com>\n\nAt 10:29 PM 10/18/98 -0700, Robert Borski [Sgt. Rock] wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have my doubts about whether such a sword would really work, even if\nwe\nignore the structural problems of a hollow blade (it would either be\nweak or\nvery thick, I think). As you swing the blade, there is little\ncentrifugal\nforce being exerted at the hilt, since it's moving slowly compared to\nthe\npoint. Thus, by the time the mercury gets to the tip end of the blade,\nyour\nswing would likely have been completed (assuming the mercury gets that\nfar\nat all). On the other hand, if we assume that the mercury gets there\nquickly, I think it would have the effect of increasing the effort\nrequired\nto make the swing, since you must now accelerate the mass of the mercury\nalong with the rest of the blade." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Think about the stroke involved in beheading a prisoner. The sword is\nraised overhead and brought down in a smooth circle. Gravity, not the\ncentrifugal effect, is what moves the quicksilver. As the sword passes\nthe\npoint at which it is horizontal to the ground, the tip becomes much\nheavier, and gravity brings the mercury into the tip. Thus, the lichtor\ncan\nraise the sword slowly and bring it down very quickly.\n\nIt would be worse in a swordfight than a standard sword, though, for all\nthe reasons you explained:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In any case, having the balance of the blade shifting about during\ncombat\nwould be very undesirable. It would make the force required to move the\nblade unpredictable, as would be the momentum of the blade. In other\nwords,\nyou might not be able to stop the swing where you want it, or move the\nblade\nquickly enought to parry. The Sergeant prefers plain steel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So my answer to your question, Robert, is that it was military surplus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "army got rid of the thing as soon as it could, and sold it quite\ncheaply." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a ceremonial sword of office. Who other than the torturers would\nwant it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The blade is inspired by an actual \"weapons\" (tool\nis more like it), the rounded tip is from French executioners blades (as\nused on Ann Boleyn--sp?). The internal reservoir filled with mercury comes\nfrom Chinese BCE era executioners swords. Both apparently worked quite well\nfor their respective tasks. \n Mike" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kieran Cleary", "address": "kierannwn at tinet.ie" }, "date": "1998-10-19T10:32:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n026", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mike:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The blade is inspired by an actual \"weapons\" (tool" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "is more like it), the rounded tip is from French executioners blades<\n\nisn't the tip of TE flat? Interesting about the Chinese swords.\n\nKieran C.\n\nNorth West Labs\nFinisklin Industrial Estate\nSligo\nRepublic of Ireland\n\nTel. +353 71 69441\nFax. +353 71 69451\nemail: kierannwn at tinet.ie" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter T. Cash", "address": "ptcash at ibm.net" }, "date": "1998-10-21T23:21:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n026", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mark Milman wrote:\n\nI, Sergeant Rock, wrote this???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"How about \"pagan\" instead of \"extra-\nChristian\"? I don't think this darkness\nis anything new; perhaps after the 19th\ncentury it becomes \"neo-paganism\",\nthat's all. I would argue that any work\nthat doesn't have a Christian dimension\nbut does deal with supernatural evil is\npagan; any dualism is strictly secondary\nand quite uninteresting. (I'm not saying\nthat pagan works necessarily lack value\nor interest, of course.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While I'll grant you that Islamic and Zoroastrian\nworks aren't typically of great importance in our\nculture, Sergeant, I'd hesitate to suggest that\nJudaism is either pagan or contains Christian\nelements." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, OK, this is one of the dumbest things I've written in a long, long\ntime. I apologize for my egregious blunder. If I keep this up, I'm going to\nlose my stripes. I could mumble something about having really meant\n\"Judaeo-Christian\", but I'd rather pretend my dumb twin wrote that\nparagraph. No, I'd rather pretend that my cat wrote it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you want to argue that supernatural\nevil in Judaism is a relic of pre-Jewish Semitic\npaganism, I'll agree with you;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I'd be very interested in learning more about that. Where would\none look to find supernatural evil in Judaism? I'm not sure I can find it in\nthe Old Testament, though it's present in the New. Sure, you've got the\ntalking \"serpent\" in the Garden, but he was just a mischievous dragon, as\nfar as I can tell. You've got the \"Accuser\" in Job, but he seems part of the\nheavenly crowd, sort of God's prosecuting attorney. If you're talking about\nmodern Jewish literature, then the supernatural evil couldn't possibly be a\npre-Semitic survival, could it?\n\nIt's in the New Testament that you get the real Good/Evil polarity, the\nnotion of a Judgment, and the belief that if you pass the Judgment, then\neternal life is your reward. I don't even think they have the same concept\nof \"sin\" in the OT. Christ casts out demons, and speaks of an \"evil one\" who\nwants to destroy the harvest. From the fact that he spoke like this, I must\nassume that the concept of \"Satan\" was not foreign to Jews of the time. But\nwhat was its origin? Did it creep in somehow between the Old Testament and\nthe New? This has puzzled me for a long time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but then I'll insist\nthat Christian supernatural evil derives from a\nmuch wider variety of assimilated and co-opted\npagan sources." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, Christianity did a lot of assimilating and co-opting. That's what made\nit so successful. As you point out, the assimilation is mostly on the level\nof folk-belief. However, the notion of an Evil One is pretty much part and\nparcel of official Christian belief, and the old devil has caused a lot of\ntrouble for theologians." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergeant Rock continued:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Satan exists, he's void, in the sense\nof having no substance--I believe the\ncommon metaphor is say he is like a\nshadow. (Hmmm....shadows in Wolfe's\nworks...not an uncommon theme.\nHmmm.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Satan is void and without substance, there's\na strong implication that all the other members\nof God's heavenly hosts are as well; the book\nof Job makes Satan's existence, if not his\nexact role, quite explicit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I said above, I'm not certain that the Accuser in Job fits the Satanic\njob description. One could argue that Job is best grouped with Ecclesiastes,\nthe Psalms and the Song of Solomon as not being the same type of literature\nas the Pentateuch or the Prophets--nobody sensible thinks the Song is any\nsort of historical narrative, for instance. But I note with respect your\nargument that if Satan is void, then so are the angels from among whom he\nfell. I'm not sure which direction I want to go on that one.\n\nI must conclude that only my cat is sure what kind of stuff Satan is made\nout of. Perhaps I can get him to post again about it some time. At this\npoint, I'll just limit myself to observing that Satan being a void is a\ntheological necessity, otherwise you get in Big Trouble, fall prey to\ntheological dualism, and get burned at the stake. It's sort of like the\nTrinity.\n\nSgt. Rock (almost busted to corporal again)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1998-10-22T09:51:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n026", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sgt. Rock said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I'd be very interested in learning more about that. Where would\none look to find supernatural evil in Judaism? I'm not sure I can find it in\nthe Old Testament, though it's present in the New. Sure, you've got the\ntalking \"serpent\" in the Garden, but he was just a mischievous dragon, as\nfar as I can tell. You've got the \"Accuser\" in Job, but he seems part of the\nheavenly crowd, sort of God's prosecuting attorney. If you're talking about\nmodern Jewish literature, then the supernatural evil couldn't possibly be a\npre-Semitic survival, could it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm... The idols of the surrounding tribes are pretty much treated as without\npower; I can't think of an instance where they actually do anything--although\nthe only times they would be doing anything would be in \"competition\" with God\nand even if they were seen as actual beings or shadows of some (shadowy\nitself...) being they'd still be null in that case..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's in the New Testament that you get the real Good/Evil polarity, the\nnotion of a Judgment, and the belief that if you pass the Judgment, then\neternal life is your reward. I don't even think they have the same concept\nof \"sin\" in the OT. Christ casts out demons, and speaks of an \"evil one\" who\nwants to destroy the harvest. From the fact that he spoke like this, I must\nassume that the concept of \"Satan\" was not foreign to Jews of the time. But\nwhat was its origin? Did it creep in somehow between the Old Testament and\nthe New? This has puzzled me for a long time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. The idea was definitely present in Jewish thought by the time of Christ.\nI forget the pieced together developmental history, but it was also identified\nby that time (pre-Christian) with the serpent in the garden and the Accuser in\nJob. I forget though, which groups held and which didn't hold the idea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure, Christianity did a lot of assimilating and co-opting. That's what made\nit so successful. As you point out, the assimilation is mostly on the level\nof folk-belief. However, the notion of an Evil One is pretty much part and\nparcel of official Christian belief, and the old devil has caused a lot of\ntrouble for theologians." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, you'd think that would be right up his alley, wouldn't you? :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I said above, I'm not certain that the Accuser in Job fits the Satanic\njob description. One could argue that Job is best grouped with Ecclesiastes,\nthe Psalms and the Song of Solomon as not being the same type of literature\nas the Pentateuch or the Prophets--nobody sensible thinks the Song is any\nsort of historical narrative, for instance. But I note with respect your\nargument that if Satan is void, then so are the angels from among whom he\nfell. I'm not sure which direction I want to go on that one.\n\nI must conclude that only my cat is sure what kind of stuff Satan is made\nout of. Perhaps I can get him to post again about it some time. At this\npoint, I'll just limit myself to observing that Satan being a void is a\ntheological necessity, otherwise you get in Big Trouble, fall prey to\ntheological dualism, and get burned at the stake. It's sort of like the\nTrinity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think sort of the standard description would be the stuff of good, perverted\nby ill-will--you get into dualism if you suggest there's any other kind of\nstuff to be made of. Void, but active with malice. I've been trying to think\nof a Wolfe work with some supernatural evil in it--Abaia and Erebus don't fit\nthe description; I think there's a faint hint of it at times in Long Sun--Mucor\nand the vampires aren't supernatural, but suggest it (Mucor make's me think of\nthe kid in the Exorcist...) THE DEVIL IN A FOREST is actually the best I can\ncome up with--the little idol. Since Wolfe thinks the Greek gods may have been\nsome kind of beings, it's not too far out to have an idol be demonic." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "mark_millman at hmco.com" }, "date": "1998-10-22T12:07:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n026", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 22 October 1998 at 6:21 am GMT,\nSergeant Rock (Peter T. Cash) wrote:\nActually, I'd be very interested in learning\nmore about [supernatural evil in Judaism].\nWhere would one look to find supernatural\nevil in Judaism? I'm not sure I can find it in\nthe Old Testament, though it's present in\nthe New. Sure, you've got the talking \"ser-\npent\" in the Garden, but he was just a mis-\nchievous dragon, as far as I can tell. You've\ngot the \"Accuser\" in Job, but he seems part\nof the heavenly crowd, sort of God's prose-\ncuting attorney. If you're talking about mod-\nern Jewish literature, then the supernatural\nevil couldn't possibly be a pre-Semitic sur-\nvival, could it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To which alga (Alice Turner) responded at\n12:52 pm GMT:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[T]he most famous (and popular too, in the\nfeminist millennial crowd) supernatural He-\nbrew figure is Lilith, akin to the Sumerian Liltu,\nand Adam's first wife. She ditched him be-\ncause he insisted on the missionary position\nduring sex while she wanted to be on top from\ntime to time. (This was edited out of Genesis--\nthe rib story follows.) She was then demonized\ninto a) the mother of a huge breed of demons\nb) a demon who preys on newborns. Typical\nmale revision. Anyway, she is quite similar to\nBabylonian Jahi (literally Revelation's Whore\nof Babylon), whom we met in Dr. Talos's play." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Alex David Groce added at 1:52 pm GMT:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmmm... The idols of the surrounding tribes\nare pretty much treated as without power; I\ncan't think of an instance where they actually\ndo anything--although the only times they\nwould be doing anything would be in \"com-\npetition\" with God and even if they were seen\nas actual beings or shadows of some (sha-\ndowy itself...) being they'd still be null in that\ncase..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As alga points out, the example that comes most\nreadily to mind is Lilith. Although her story has\nbeen edited out of Genesis, it can be found in the\nTalmud, along with a lot of other material that was\neither deemed unsuitable for inclusion in the Bible\nor was treated as sub-canonical--folkloric mater-\nials and the like.\n\nA good example of a being mentioned in contrast\nto God in the Torah is Azazel (in Leviticus 16, as\npart of the discussion of atonement ritual). The so-\ncalled scapegoat is a mistranslation; the Hebrew\nphrase \"goat for Azazel\" is somewhat similar to\n\"the goat that departs or escapes\", and was so\nrendered by William Tyndale in his 1530 Bible\ntranslation. The goat for Azazel was released into\nthe desert carrying the sins of the people; I belive\nthat Azazel was then supposed to consume it in\nsome fashion. So while Azazel gets pretty short\nshrift, it does seem that he (a) has a function; (b)\nhas enough substance or capability to exercise it;\nand (c) consumes sin. I don't know whether either\nancient or modern opinion holds that the consump-\ntion of sin implies that Azazel may be evil (i.e., be-\ning evil, Azazel must feed on evil), however.\n\nAs Alex points out, most of the surrounding pagan\nSemitic idolatrous gods are mentioned merely as\nabominations or things to be avoided--Moloch falls\ninto this category, as do Ba'al and others less well-\nknown.\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1998-10-22T12:49:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n026", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mark Millman wrote:\nA good example of a being mentioned in contrast\nto God in the Torah is Azazel (in Leviticus 16, as\npart of the discussion of atonement ritual). The so-\ncalled scapegoat is a mistranslation; the Hebrew\nphrase \"goat for Azazel\" is somewhat similar to\n\"the goat that departs or escapes\", and was so\nrendered by William Tyndale in his 1530 Bible\ntranslation. The goat for Azazel was released into\nthe desert carrying the sins of the people; I belive\nthat Azazel was then supposed to consume it in\nsome fashion. So while Azazel gets pretty short\nshrift, it does seem that he (a) has a function; (b)\nhas enough substance or capability to exercise it;\nand (c) consumes sin. I don't know whether either\nancient or modern opinion holds that the consump-\ntion of sin implies that Azazel may be evil (i.e., be-\ning evil, Azazel must feed on evil), however." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tAh. It's Azazel I was trying to think of--a most mysterious being. I\ndon't know a lot about the ancient context, but I know Azazel now is usually\nused as a symbol of evil. For instance, read Walker Percy's \"The Thanatos\nSyndrome.\" If I'm correct, either that mention or later discussion talks of\nthe place where Azazel dwelt as the ultimate waste, barren and (fairly\nliterally) God-forsaken. I think Azazel is definitely represented as a real,\nalien entity (to men), and there is at least an implication of evil." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-10-22T17:17:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n026", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Peter T. Cash wrote:\nActually, I'd be very interested in learning more about that. Where would\none look to find supernatural evil in Judaism? I'm not sure I can find it in\nthe Old Testament, though it's present in the New. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it only in Christian tradition that Daniel 10 is interpreted as\nevidence of supernatural battles between good angels and evil angels?\n\nDaniel has a vision of an angelic being who says to him:\n\n\"Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart\nto understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were\nheard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of\nPersia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the\nchief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of\nPersia\" (Daniel 10:12-13, KJV). \n\nI know some Christian traditions interpret these \"princes\" as supernatural\nbeings (I think this is the passage from which some Charismatics get the\nconcept of \"territorial spirits\"), but I don't know if this counts as an\nexample of Jewish belief in supernatural evil or if that interpretation\nonly comes along with Christian cosmology.\n\nNow that I think about it, there is another example.\n\nIn Genesis 6:4 where it talks about \"sons of God\" bearing children with\n\"daughters of men\" there was, before the Christian era, a Jewish tradition\nthat these \"sons of God\" were evil spirits and that it was by way of these\nevil spirits (rather than from some \"original sin\" of Adam, an idea that I\ndon't think really took hold until St. Augustine) that evil entered the\nhuman race. I'm afraid the only citation I have for this is a passing\nmention in an essay on the doctrine of original sin.\n\nIn both these examples, of course, evil spirits are subordinate to God\n(\"sons of God\", fighting God's agents rather than God himself), so they do\nnot appear to be instances of dualism in Jewish thought. \n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1998-10-22T17:55:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n026", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Straight wrote:\nIs it only in Christian tradition that Daniel 10 is interpreted as\nevidence of supernatural battles between good angels and evil angels?\n\nDaniel has a vision of an angelic being who says to him:\n\n\"Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart\nto understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were\nheard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of\nPersia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the\nchief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of\nPersia\" (Daniel 10:12-13, KJV)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tThese are sometimes known as the \"genius\" of a particular people, are\nthey not? It seems to me that Wolfe has commented on these, although I'll be\ndarned if I know where, and I may be confusing him with someone else (a likely\nsuspects would be Russell Kirk). Anybody else recall this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now that I think about it, there is another example.\n\nIn Genesis 6:4 where it talks about \"sons of God\" bearing children with\n\"daughters of men\" there was, before the Christian era, a Jewish tradition\nthat these \"sons of God\" were evil spirits and that it was by way of these\nevil spirits (rather than from some \"original sin\" of Adam, an idea that I\ndon't think really took hold until St. Augustine) that evil entered the\nhuman race. I'm afraid the only citation I have for this is a passing\nmention in an essay on the doctrine of original sin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tWell, maybe fleshed out by St. Augustine--I think it's present in good\nold St. Paul. If the Epistle to the Romans (and Hebrews--though Paul may not\nhave been responsible for this one) doesn't contain something like the doctrine\nof original sin (\"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them\nthat had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the\nfigure of him that was to come.\"--Romans 5:14, KJV) I'll eat my hat, and Karl\nBarth has even less of a leg to stand on than I thought.\n\tAs to these sons of God, Wolfe once suggested they were the\nNeanderthals. R. A. Lafferty is practically obsessed with them (and also seems\nto equate them with Neanderthals). In general, those passages are some of the\nweirdest and wooliest of the OT, and what's really going on here is anybody's\nguess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In both these examples, of course, evil spirits are subordinate to God\n(\"sons of God\", fighting God's agents rather than God himself), so they do\nnot appear to be instances of dualism in Jewish thought." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the NT \"dualism\" is only real dualism interpreted one (I'd say the wrong)\nway. The orthodox idea of Satan falls well short of full-fledged dualism (as\nSgt. Rock points out, he's a shadow), although he is used in a dualist sense in\nfiction all the time. By everyone from great writers (Hawthorne to some\nextent) to modern day horror hacks." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] } ] }