{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1228", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1228, "subject": "Julian Jaynes' Bicameral Brain", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "1998-10-28T20:57:54+00:00", "last": "1998-10-29T10:21:31+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ye Olde Mothman", "address": "mothman at peak.org" }, "date": "1998-10-28T20:57:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Julian Jaynes' Bicameral Brain", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has Julian Jaynes' theory expressed in \"The Origin of Consciousness in the\nBreakdown of the Bicameral Mind\" ever been discused in relation to Wolfe's\n\"Soldier of the Mist?\" If I read it right, Jaynes beleives that self\nconsciousness didn't develop until about 500 B.C. and that any internal\nvoices, motivations, or initiative, prior to this thinking shift, would have\nbeen attributed to Gods -- that in the Iliad, when the gods speak they are\nonly heard by the heroes they are speaking too -- this is what makes humans\nact. Sounds like the situation the character in Wolfe's book finds\nhimself -- hallucinating gods, being at their mercy, no real concept of\nhaving a say in what's going on around him. Maybe not...\n\n\"Even Bedouins hate their Phone Company!\"\n -The President's Analyst" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1998-10-29T09:36:37+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Julian Jaynes' Bicameral Brain", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mothman said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Subject: (urth) Julian Jaynes' Bicameral Brain\nHas Julian Jaynes' theory expressed in \"The Origin of Consciousness in the\nBreakdown of the Bicameral Mind\" ever been discused in relation to Wolfe's\n\"Soldier of the Mist?\" If I read it right, Jaynes beleives that self\nconsciousness didn't develop until about 500 B.C. and that any internal\nvoices, motivations, or initiative, prior to this thinking shift, would have\nbeen attributed to Gods -- that in the Iliad, when the gods speak they are\nonly heard by the heroes they are speaking too -- this is what makes humans\nact. Sounds like the situation the character in Wolfe's book finds\nhimself -- hallucinating gods, being at their mercy, no real concept of\nhaving a say in what's going on around him. Maybe not..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI don't think we've discussed this, but it sounds as if Wolfe might\nhave had it in mind. On the other hand, I think Latro actually has a fairly\ndeveloped self-consciousness (at least of the same peculiar kind as Severian,\nhis mnemonic opposite, has)--it seems that there IS a line between the gods and\nthe self to be found. For example, his desire to get home seems to be a tool\nthe gods use to manipulate him--hardly possible if he had no self to dangel a\ncarrot in front of." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-10-29T10:21:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Julian Jaynes' Bicameral Brain", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Alex David Groce wrote:\nMothman said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Has Julian Jaynes' theory expressed in \"The Origin of Consciousness in the\nBreakdown of the Bicameral Mind\" ever been discused in relation to Wolfe's\n\"Soldier of the Mist?\" If I read it right, Jaynes beleives that self\nconsciousness didn't develop until about 500 B.C. and that any internal\nvoices, motivations, or initiative, prior to this thinking shift, would have\nbeen attributed to Gods -- that in the Iliad, when the gods speak they are\nonly heard by the heroes they are speaking too -- this is what makes humans\nact. Sounds like the situation the character in Wolfe's book finds\nhimself -- hallucinating gods, being at their mercy, no real concept of\nhaving a say in what's going on around him. Maybe not..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tI don't think we've discussed this, but it sounds as if Wolfe might\nhave had it in mind. On the other hand, I think Latro actually has a fairly\ndeveloped self-consciousness (at least of the same peculiar kind as Severian,\nhis mnemonic opposite, has)--it seems that there IS a line between the gods and\nthe self to be found. For example, his desire to get home seems to be a tool\nthe gods use to manipulate him--hardly possible if he had no self to dangel a\ncarrot in front of." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. Following Mothman's hypothesis, one would expect Latro's desire\nto manifest as regular visits from Hestia urging him to search out his\nkindred and get home. Except that Wolfe would find three other more\nobscure names for her and use them interchangably with one he made up.\n\nI've heard of Jaynes' theory before and find it intriguing, but never\nread the book to see how (she?/he?) defends it. Thanks for reminding me\nof the book, I'd like to check it out. \n\nIt reminds me of C.S. Lewis's argument that ancient peoples did not make\nthe same distinctions we make between physical and spiritual; that there\ndidn't need to be different words for spirit and wind because they were\nthe same thing; that no one bothered to ask to what extent \"seated at the\nright hand of God\" was literal or figurative; that no one would think to\nask, \"Am I really participating in this liturgy, or am I just going\nthrough the motions? Am I really worshiping or just dancing?\" \n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }