Subject: (urth) Re: Jaynes as influence on Wolfe's _Soldier_

From: John Bishop <jbishop at blkbrd.zko.dec.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:27:10 +0000

Mothman _et_al_:

In 1991 I wrote Gene Wolfe, asking him whether he had read Jaynes,
and whether that had influenced _Soldier_.

He wrote back saying that he had not read Julian Jaynes' book _The
Origin_of_Consciousness_in_the_Breakdown_of_the_Bicameral_Mind_ until
after he wrote _Soldier_, and found the book's hypothesis implausible. 

(He also said "I would have liked to footnote every page."  The
publisher didn't go along with this, as they felt it would reduce
the number of sales.)
    
So there you have it--a beautiful theory slain by a single ugly fact.

I also found Jayne's hypothesis unlikely, as it fails to explain
why the world is not still full of people who see gods.  I think he
points to reading as crucial (if I recall correctly), but while
literacy may work for some, there are still a lot of illiterates
who seem to be self-conscious.  On the other hand, I like the
approach--taking texts literally rather than 
"spiritually" has
been successful in the past (e.g. finding Troy based on Homer),
and it does explain the large number of statues in the past compared
to the small number today (though I explain that by pointing to
other PR outlets than statuary we now have).

re Rostrum's quote of Lewis--we have actual examples of traditional
peoples who have been extensively investigated; some do make the
distiction (between "participating in this liturgy, or ... just going
through the motions") and others don't.  In particular, I've read
that this is one of the reasons the Hopi and the Navaho don't get
along: the Hopi believe that correct form is important, but that
ritual doesn't require sincere feeling; the Navaho believe that
sincere feeling is crucial but form is secondary.

It's easy to say wierd things about the Classical world and not be
proven wrong; it's harder when there are living people to question.
While the Hopi are not the ancient Egyptians, etc., I think we can
usefully look to recent anthropological work to illuminate the past.

re _Snow_Crash_: it was fun, but the basic premise is just wrong;
Sumerian is _not_ the first language--it's maybe the oldest one we
have texts from, but that's different.  Plus it's not a "brain-stem
hacking" tool; I've looked at it in passing and it's just another
language.  As a BA in Linguistics, I've not yet seen SF which gets
Linguistics right at all; the tendancy is to go wild on the wildest
version of Whorf' hypothesis, or to get some basic concept wrong.
As an MSc in Computer Science, it's the same for computing.  This
is not to say that there couldn't be a tool for programming the mind
via language (indeed, advertising and so on show that there _is_),
but it's not going to be Sumerian.

	-John Bishop

*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

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From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:58:35 +0000

> usefully look to recent anthropological work to illuminate the past.

Have you read Chesterton's critique (I think it's in _The Everlasting
Man_) of the assumption you can draw valid inferences about ancient
peoples by observing modern peoples who happen to have a similar
technological level?  If so, what do you think?  (I'll try to find and
summarize it for you if you're interested.)

Of course, I'm not sure what evidence Lewis had for his statements either.
One place he talks about the subject is his book about the Psalms;  I'll
have to take another look at it.

-Rostrum

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From: Alex David Groce <adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu>
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:20:45 +0000

> other PR outlets than statuary we now have).

Hmmm.  Also, if you assume that when people "see gods" they aren't actually
seeing something externally present, IN ALL CASES, then the literary argument
seems to fall down--St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, etc.--some of
the most notable God seers of all time aren't just literate, but are even
authors.  Mind you, my personal explanation would be that they actually "saw
God"--not exactly the divine presence itself, but such that the phrase isn't
inapplicable.

> but it's not going to be Sumerian.

	I think Stephenson intends the basic premise to be nonsense.  Snow
Crash is a comedy--I mean, when a book names the hero Hiro Protagonist, you
should expect any conspiracy theories it uses to be complete hocum-pocum.  On
the other hand, Stephenson's computer stuff (if I recall) is quite good, but
then he was a programmer at one time (like Greg Egan).  I don't think
advertising "programs" the mind--influences, sure, but as a Comp. Sci person
myself that's a long shot from programming.  BOTNS sure influenced my mind, but
I can't say it programmed it.  And the subliminal message stuff that looked
like programming has now largely been discredited (the data was faked.)  To
actually "program" the mind, in my opinion, would require a stimulus that can
be shown to universally produce the same response in normal human beings (IE,
if the program was to run and it failed for a man with a broken leg that
wouldn't count) and the only thing close to that is vey basic human reactions,
like jumping at loud noises, etc.  I can "see through" a lot of advertising.  A
Turing machine can't see through a program...  Thus, if it existed, possesion
like in Long Sun WOULD be programming--a visual stimulus that actually "takes
over" the mind.

-- 
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." - John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)
Senior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)
'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President
608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce

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From: Kevin J. Maroney <kmaroney at crossover.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 14:16:38 +0000

At 01:20 PM 10/30/98 -0500, Alex wrote:
>On
>then he was a programmer at one time (like Greg Egan).  

Yes and no. 

I can say this about the conclusion of _Snow Crash_ without spoiling it
(and it's a fun book, well worth reading even with its significant
problems, some conceptual, some structural): The climax of the novel
degenerates into literal motorcycle race in cyberspace between antagonists
who would *both* have realized that the fastest way to "get" where they
were going would have been to drop out of the cyberspace and pop back in at
their goal. The lack of "teleportation" analogues in the cyberspace is
completely unconvincing but is absolutely vital for the plot of the novel. 

Other than that, his evocation of a cyberspace-VR community is at least as
convincing as Vinge's _True Names_. (Vinge by name, and _True Names_ by
retrocontinuity, is mentioned in _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_, so this post
is now officially back on-topic.)

Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at crossover.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction
http://ebbs.english.vt.edu/olp/nyrsf/nyrsf.html