{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1289", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1289, "subject": "Digest urth.v022.n001", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1998-11-30T23:48:50+00:00", "last": "1998-12-03T10:56:48+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter T. Cash", "address": "ptcash at ibm.net" }, "date": "1998-11-30T23:48:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v022.n001", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Nigel Price \nWombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "John 19:30 cum ergo accepisset Iesus acetum dixit consummatum est et\n ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\ninclinato capite tradidit spiritum\n\n(\"And when Jesus had received the vinegar, he said \"It is finished\" and\nbowed his head and gave up his spirit.\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, bummer isn't it? Definitely \"consummatum est\" (\"it is accomplished\")\nrather than \"terminus est\" in the Vulgate. I still haven't found my copy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And, of course, I looked at John 19.30 and found \"consummatum est\", which\njust about put the tin lid on a bad day, much of the afternoon of which I" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fear not, friend Nigel--your position is salvageable. I have it on good\nauthority that Jesus' grasp of Latin was pretty weak. In fact, he hardly\nused it at all, preferring the local patois (Hebrew? Aramaic? Dang, my\nseminary days were wasted, I fear. No, the Sergeant doth not jest--he really\nspent a year in seminary, during which he learned nothing.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's always a danger to assume that words in other languages have the\nsame\nconnotations and nuances that they do in English, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Absolutely... Though my Latin dictionary gives \"end, conclusion\" as one of\nthe possible meanings of \"terminus\", and that is the sense in which Cicero\nseems to have used it (eg \"terminus contentionum\" = \"the end of the\nstruggle\")." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, we all know that the words of Jesus as recorded in the Latin\nVulgate are themselves a translation--actually, a translation of a\ntranslation, since the New Testament was first recorded in Greek...which\nJesus probably didn't speak either. We know also that even the best\ntranslation from one language to another risks a loss of nuance. The exact\nchoice of words is often problematic--in many cases the translator can\nphrase the text in a number of different ways. Thus, I think it reasonable\nto posit that the Vulgate could easily have translated Christ's words as\n\"Terminus est\". Heck, it would have been a considerably more elegant\ntranslation, for my money. The fact that the Vulgate does not use this word\nchoice does not tell decisively against your suggestion that \"Terminus Est\"\ncan be translated as \"It is finished\", and your observation that this is the\nway Christ's last words are often translated into English." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No doubt about it, my theory about the significance of the name \"Terminus\nEst\" is considerably weakened by the fact that the Vulgate does not use\nthis particular wording. I still maintain that \"It is finished\" is a\nlegitamate translation of the name, though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And I think you're right, but wrong to so quickly accept the Vulgate's word\nchoice as relevant to your point. Perhaps Wolfe is on record somewhere as\ndeclaring the Vulgate as the One True and Inerrant Translation; if so, we\nshould slink back into our foxholes. But if not, I think it's reasonable to\nsuggest that \"terminus est\" may be translated into English as \"it is\nfinished\", and that Wolfe was aware of this. I've always been partial to\nthat translation of the sword's name (and I've said so before).\n\nSgt. Rock" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-12-03T10:56:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v022.n001", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Peter T. Cash wrote:\nOf course, we all know that the words of Jesus as recorded in the Latin\nVulgate are themselves a translation--actually, a translation of a\ntranslation, since the New Testament was first recorded in Greek...which\nJesus probably didn't speak either. We know also that even the best\ntranslation from one language to another risks a loss of nuance. The exact\nchoice of words is often problematic--in many cases the translator can\nphrase the text in a number of different ways. Thus, I think it reasonable\nto posit that the Vulgate could easily have translated Christ's words as\n\"Terminus est\". Heck, it would have been a considerably more elegant\ntranslation, for my money. The fact that the Vulgate does not use this word\nchoice does not tell decisively against your suggestion that \"Terminus Est\"\ncan be translated as \"It is finished\", and your observation that this is the\nway Christ's last words are often translated into English." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The problem with this from a Roman Catholic sensibility is that the Church\nbelieves it has a tradition of interpreting the Bible with a better\nunderstanding of what Jesus meant than a 20th century scholar trying to\nfigure it out by guessing what Aramaic words he might have used. The\nVulgate was likely trying to capture meanings with \"Consumatum Est\" that\n\"Terminus Est\" did not carry.\n\nWhich is to say, I don't think the way to save this theory is to argue\n\"The Vulgate got it wrong.\" Rather argue that since the English \"It is\nfinished\" can mean \"It is over,\" \"It is the end,\" and \"It is completed,\"\n\"It is finished\" is both a possible translation for \"Terminus Est\" and the\ncommon English translation of Christ's last words. So the connection is\nthere via English (close enough that I can believe Wolfe intended it) and\ndoesn't need to be traced back via the Vulgate.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }