{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1290", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1290, "subject": "Digest urth.v022.n002", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "1998-12-02T16:25:38+00:00", "last": "1998-12-03T11:06:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "al at interport.net" }, "date": "1998-12-02T19:04:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v022.n002", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Nigel Price \nWombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "John 19:30 cum ergo accepisset Iesus acetum dixit consummatum est et\ninclinato capite tradidit spiritum\n\n(\"And when Jesus had received the vinegar, he said \"It is finished\" and\nbowed his head and gave up his spirit.\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah, bummer isn't it? Definitely \"consummatum est\" (\"it is\naccomplished\")\nrather than \"terminus est\" in the Vulgate. I still haven't found my copy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And, of course, I looked at John 19.30 and found \"consummatum est\", which\njust about put the tin lid on a bad day, much of the afternoon of which I" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fear not, friend Nigel--your position is salvageable. I have it on good\nauthority that Jesus' grasp of Latin was pretty weak. In fact, he hardly\nused it at all, preferring the local patois (Hebrew? Aramaic? Dang, my\nseminary days were wasted, I fear. No, the Sergeant doth not jest--he\nreally\nspent a year in seminary, during which he learned nothing.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, we all know that the words of Jesus as recorded in the Latin\nVulgate are themselves a translation--actually, a translation of a\ntranslation, since the New Testament was first recorded in Greek...which\nJesus probably didn't speak either." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, according to something I read somewhere lately (don't you love\nthat?--such a perfect Usenet reference), perhaps an article in The Atlantic,\nJesus may well have spoken some or even a fair amount of Greek, from the\nevidence that the next town over from Nazareth (the name of which escapes\nme, naturally) was a highly Hellenicized trading town---before you pounce to\npoint out that the occupation was Roman, not Greek, the author made the\npoint that the lingua franca was at that time Greek (you take my\nmeaning--the English of today, heh, heh).\n\nOn the other hand, it's unlikely that he went around spouting Greek at\nwedding parties, on top of Mounts and on the cross." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it's reasonable to\nsuggest that \"terminus est\" may be translated into English as \"it is\nfinished\", and that Wolfe was aware of this. I've always been partial to\nthat translation of the sword's name (and I've said so before)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I also. But then I've always been partial to the Sarge.\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "George M. Terry", "address": "gmterry at ucdavis.edu" }, "date": "1998-12-02T16:25:38+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v022.n002", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello,\nthis is my first post to the list--this is the first time I actually have\nhad anything meaningful to contribute to any discussion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alga wrote:\nJesus may well have spoken some or even a fair amount of\nGreek, from the\nevidence that the next town over from Nazareth (the name of\nwhich escapes\nme, naturally) was a highly Hellenicized trading\ntown---before you pounce to\npoint out that the occupation was Roman, not Greek, the\nauthor made the\npoint that the lingua franca was at that time Greek (you take my\nmeaning--the English of today, heh, heh)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The town in question was Sephorris. It was a fairly large (relative to the\nother places in the area like Nazareth, only five miles away) town, and was\napparently on some trade road. Lots of construction went on there in the\nearly part of the first century CE, including a large amphitheater. If\nJesus were a carpenter (or craftsman of some description--I believe the\nGreek NT uses the word 'teknon') he would of probably needed some Greek to\ngain employment in this city and communicate.\nAnd truly the language of the Roman Empire was Greek for the common people.\nLatin was used administratively. Even early church services in Rome were\nheld in Greek.\n\nThat's all.\n\nGeorge Terry" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at crossover.com" }, "date": "1998-12-02T20:21:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v022.n002", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 07:04 PM 12/2/98 -0500, alga wrote:\nJesus may well have spoken some or even a fair amount of Greek, from the\nevidence that the next town over from Nazareth (the name of which escapes\nme, naturally) was a highly Hellenicized trading town---before you pounce to\npoint out that the occupation was Roman, not Greek, the author made the\npoint that the lingua franca was at that time Greek (you take my\nmeaning--the English of today, heh, heh)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Capernum and Sepphoris were two fairly large newly-buily, heavily\nHellinized towns within walking distance of Nazareth. Neither is mentioned\nat all in the Gospels or in Acts, from which some scholars (notably but not\nsolely John Dominic Crossan) have concluded that Jesus and the movement he\nheaded during his life did not address themselves at the Greeks and Romans\nin Judea. \n\nIf Jesus was a tekton (craftsman, usually translated \"carpenter\") before he\nbecame a teacher/prophet/revolutionary, he probably did speak at least\nenough Greek to do business in those cities. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, it's unlikely that he went around spouting Greek at\nwedding parties, on top of Mounts and on the cross." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. Based on the scanty evidence, he certainly spoke Aramaic as his\nprimary language, and probably spoke Aramaic to his flock. The Gospel of\nMark is littered with Aramaic statements which Mark then helpfully\ntranslates into Greek.\n\nJesus probably never spoke Latin, though. \n\n(For reasons that are unclear to me, I've been reading a lot of\nearly-New-Testament scholarship over the last year-and-a-half. I highly\nrecommend John Crossan's recent _The Birth of Christianity_ as one of the\nbest scholarly works I've *ever* read--incredibly well-researched,\nwide-ranging, funny, just flat-out brilliant. You will never look at\nChristianity the same way again.)\n\nHas anyone here mentioned the scene in Acts 17:23 cf where Paul lectures\nthe Greeks on the true nature of the \"Unknown God\" to whom they have altars?\n\n[22] So Paul, standing in the middle of the Are-op'agus, said: \"Men of\nAthens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. \n[23] For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I\nfound also an altar with this inscription, `To an unknown god.' What\ntherefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. \n[24] The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven\nand earth, does not live in shrines made by man, \n[25] nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since\nhe himself gives to all men life and breath and everything. \n[26] And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of\nthe earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their\nhabitation, \n[27] that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him\nand find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, \n[28] for `In him we live and move and have our being';\nas even some of your poets have said, `For we are indeed his offspring.'\n\nThe relevance to _The Book of the Long Sun_ should be, I think, obvious.\n\nWombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at crossover.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://ebbs.english.vt.edu/olp/nyrsf/nyrsf.html" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-12-03T10:18:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v022.n002", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Kevin J. Maroney wrote:\n(For reasons that are unclear to me, I've been reading a lot of\nearly-New-Testament scholarship over the last year-and-a-half. I highly\nrecommend John Crossan's recent _The Birth of Christianity_ as one of the\nbest scholarly works I've *ever* read--incredibly well-researched,\nwide-ranging, funny, just flat-out brilliant. You will never look at\nChristianity the same way again.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't read Crossan, but I've read some fairly compelling critiques of\nhis work which might interest you.\n\nN.T. Wright's _Jesus and the Victory of God_ argues that Crossan et. al.\nmisread Jesus and the early church by abstracting them too much from the\ncontext of first century Judaism. There's a good review of it here:\n\nhttp://www.ozemail.com.au/~gsmunro/wright.html\n\nWright is very readable and also happens to be the best speaker I've ever\nheard. I've never heard anyone who takes questions, really listens to\nthem, and responds in such a thoughtful, eloquent way, genuinely answering\nthe question, not just going off on some subject inspired by it. If you\ncan ever find tapes of his lectures, they are wonderful. \n\nCatholic scholar Luke Timothy Johnson's book _The Real Jesus_ also has\nsome interesting critiques of Crossan et. al. The subtitle, \"The\nMisguided Quest for the Historical and the Truth of the Traditional\nGospels\" tells you a lot about where he's coming from, but I think some of\nhis points about the limits of historical inquiry are telling. \n\nIt's time for me to read some of Crossan's side of things, though. Thanks\nfor the recommendation. \n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at crossover.com" }, "date": "1998-12-03T11:06:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v022.n002", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:18 AM 12/3/98 -0500, Rostrum wrote:\nN.T. Wright's _Jesus and the Victory of God_ argues that Crossan et. al.\nmisread Jesus and the early church by abstracting them too much from the\ncontext of first century Judaism. There's a good review of it here:\n\nhttp://www.ozemail.com.au/~gsmunro/wright.html" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll check him out. The review doesn't give me much sense of his position\nor his criticism of Crossan, but I certainly need to read some other\nauthors. Crossan fits my own prejudices well, though, which is certainly\none of the reasons I like him.\n\nI will point out that Crossan himself does not seem to subscribe to the\nworst excess of The Jesus Seminar, but has sometimes been treated as if he\ndoes. Burton Mack, another leading Jesus Seminar scholar, is much more\nvirulently anti-miracle, anti-faith than is Crossan--Mack seems to be angry\nat every one of the authors of the New Testament. \n\nSome of Crossan's views seem explicitly idiosyncratic, but he's also very\ngood about identifying those--for instance, his insistence in _Who Killed\nJesus?_ that the crucifixion/resurrection narrative in _The Gospel of\nPeter_ actually *predates* the canonical gospels is clearly a minority\nopinion, but he argues for it quite well. \n\nAnyway, it's fun stuff. \n\n\nWombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at crossover.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://ebbs.english.vt.edu/olp/nyrsf/nyrsf.html" } ] } ] }