{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1292", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1292, "subject": "Thus Spoke Severian? (Nietzsche links)", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "1998-12-03T09:35:35+00:00", "last": "1998-12-03T20:36:57+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jon Camfield", "address": "griffjon at mail.utexas.edu" }, "date": "1998-12-03T09:35:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thus Spoke Severian? (Nietzsche links)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Yah, I's been quiet. I's been busy. OTOH, I did have a chance to read\nlots of Nietzsche, and find a few parallels, only one striking one)\n\nIn _On the Uses and Disadvantages of History for Live (1874), Nietzsche\nargued that man must live as a balance between remembering and forgetting,\nand one passage in particular struck me:\n\n\"Cheerfulness, the good conscience, the joyful deed, confidence in the\nfuture -- all of them depend, in the case of the individual as of a nation,\non the existence of a line dividing the bright and discernable from the\nunilluminable and dark; on one's being just as able to forget at the right\ntime as to remember at the right time; on the possession of a powerful\ninstinct for sensing when it is necessary to feel historically and when\nunhistorically. This, precisely, is the proposition the reader is invited\nto meditate upon: /the unhistorical and the historical are necessary in\nequal measure for the health of an individual, of a people and of a\nculture/.\" (/../ specify italics, Nietzsche's.)\n\nNow, not to overanalyze, (but I wish I knew if Wolfe had read Nietzsche!),\nbut \"line dividing the bright ... and dark\"? Terminus Est, you mean? Or\nwhat about Severian being the 'memory' for a culture living in the present\nmoment (living unhistorically) while immersed in it? And in being the\nopposite extreme, gives a healthy balance?\n\n\nAlso, in _Thus Spoke Zarathustra_, Zara announces the future of humanity as\nhaving two possible courses, one towards the Last Man (no lie!), of a\nfuture bright in technology and comfort, but immersed in decadence and\neventual death, and that of the Superhuman/Overman, who is a dramatic\nchange from current man, an evolution from him, but more a revolution in\n(moral) thought-- Ash, master of the Last House vs. the Green Man?\n\n...nahhhh. ;)\n\nHas anyone else read these connections into Nietzsche, or (as is likely)\nseen ones I missed?\n\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------\nJon Camfield \"GriffJon\" \t|Webmaster, Plan II Honors Program:\nGriffJon at mail.utexas.edu \t| www.dla.utexas.edu/~plan2\nHomepage, Gallery, Resume:\t|Channel Manager, Undernet #Poetry\n ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~griffjon \t| www.tripod.com/~ircpoetry\n------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"Behold the good and the just! Whom do they hate the most?\nThe man who breaks their tables of values, the breaker, the\nlawbreaker; yes he is the creator\"\n--Nietzsche, _Thus Spoke Zarathustra_" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1998-12-03T11:30:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Thus Spoke Severian? (Nietzsche links)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Yah, I's been quiet. I's been busy. OTOH, I did have a chance to read\nlots of Nietzsche, and find a few parallels, only one striking one)\n\nIn _On the Uses and Disadvantages of History for Live (1874), Nietzsche\nargued that man must live as a balance between remembering and forgetting,\nand one passage in particular struck me:\n\n\"Cheerfulness, the good conscience, the joyful deed, confidence in the\nfuture -- all of them depend, in the case of the individual as of a nation,\non the existence of a line dividing the bright and discernable from the\nunilluminable and dark; on one's being just as able to forget at the right\ntime as to remember at the right time; on the possession of a powerful\ninstinct for sensing when it is necessary to feel historically and when\nunhistorically. This, precisely, is the proposition the reader is invited\nto meditate upon: /the unhistorical and the historical are necessary in\nequal measure for the health of an individual, of a people and of a\nculture/.\" (/../ specify italics, Nietzsche's.)\n\nNow, not to overanalyze, (but I wish I knew if Wolfe had read Nietzsche!),\nbut \"line dividing the bright ... and dark\"? Terminus Est, you mean? Or\nwhat about Severian being the 'memory' for a culture living in the present\nmoment (living unhistorically) while immersed in it? And in being the\nopposite extreme, gives a healthy balance?\n\n\nAlso, in _Thus Spoke Zarathustra_, Zara announces the future of humanity as\nhaving two possible courses, one towards the Last Man (no lie!), of a\nfuture bright in technology and comfort, but immersed in decadence and\neventual death, and that of the Superhuman/Overman, who is a dramatic\nchange from current man, an evolution from him, but more a revolution in\n(moral) thought-- Ash, master of the Last House vs. the Green Man?\n\n...nahhhh. ;)\n\nHas anyone else read these connections into Nietzsche, or (as is likely)\nseen ones I missed?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Striking, but I'm doubtful. I can imagine Wolfe having read Nietzsche (at\nleast some), as Wolfe is certainly very widely read... On the other hand, I\ndon't see an intentional reference to Nietzsche as very likely--it just seems\nthat Wolfe's general view of things is so non-Nietzschean...\n\tOf course, it could simply be my personal distaste for\nNietzsche--certainly a genius and a brilliant writer, but on the whole his work\nstrikes me as containing a thin vein of clear perception in a sea of murk and\nerror... Severian as the Superman seems quite a bit off (first of all, Wolfe\nhas mentioned somewhere (I think) that he was fond of Chesterton's \"Meeting the\nSuperman\" or whatever, and I doubt if that's the case he'd have wanted Sev.\nassociated with that...)\n\tBut mainly, Nietzsche's \"slave morality,\" etc. analysis doesn't seem to\nfit well as a source for BOTNS... Although N's self-contradictory enough that\nyou could say that's irrelevant..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Stephenson", "address": "pws at ibmth.df.unipi.it" }, "date": "1998-12-03T16:35:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Thus Spoke Severian? (Nietzsche links)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jon Camfield wrote:\n(Yah, I's been quiet. I's been busy...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's been quiet, has it? Oh, *I's* been quiet. Dialect, don't you\nknow. Good show." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GriffJon at mail.utexas.edu \t| www.dla.utexas.edu/~plan2" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All explained. Tallyho." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, in _Thus Spoke Zarathustra_, Zara announces the future of humanity as\nhaving two possible courses, one towards the Last Man (no lie!), of a\nfuture bright in technology and comfort, but immersed in decadence and\neventual death, and that of the Superhuman/Overman, who is a dramatic\nchange from current man, an evolution from him, but more a revolution in\n(moral) thought-- Ash, master of the Last House vs. the Green Man?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sounds like parallel evolution. Lots of mystical views of the future\nprobably have this forking paths theme.\n\nOn the other hand, it's certainly interesting how many parallels you\ncan find when you pick writers with that sort of out of the way\nviewpoint. Like the connections I brought up with Yeats some time\nago; I think the conclusion (parallel evolution) was the same there.\nHe's got gyres rather than forking paths though, i.e. both extremes\nhappen repeatedly. (Did that sentence make sense?)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Peter Stephenson Tel: +39 050 844536\nWWW: http://www.ifh.de/~pws/\nDipartimento di Fisica, Via Buonarroti 2, 56127 Pisa, Italy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Derek Bell", "address": "dbell at maths.tcd.ie" }, "date": "1998-12-03T20:36:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Thus Spoke Severian? (Nietzsche links)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In message <199812031631.IAA29045 at lists1.best.com>, Alex David Groce writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But mainly, Nietzsche's \"slave morality,\" etc. analysis doesn't seem to\nfit well as a source for BOTNS..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tIt certainly would be very difficult to fit it into BOTNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Although N's self-contradictory enough that you could say that's irrelevant..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI think Karl Jaspers said that someone wasn't familiar with\nNietzsche until they had found every statement and its contradiction\nin Nietzsche's writings!\n\n\tDerek" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Derek Bell", "address": "dbell at maths.tcd.ie" }, "date": "1998-12-03T20:33:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Thus Spoke Severian? (Nietzsche links)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In message <199812031539.HAA29562 at lists1.best.com>, Jon Camfield writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now, not to overanalyze, (but I wish I knew if Wolfe had read\nNietzsche!)," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tCertainly he's aware of Nietzsche; _To the Dark Tower Came_\nhad Kent punning on the word \"Superman\" without even mentioning the\nword itself. (One of the phrases used is a thumbnail portrait of\nNietzsche's Superman.)\n\n\tOn the other hand, Nietzsche's eternal reccurence of\nthe same could be seen as incompatible with the eschatological themes\nof TBoTNS - it's certainly a new Sun and a new Earth. (A biblical\nreference, if I'm not mistaken; Nietzsche also referred to the Bible\nthough as well as Plato - who he disliked.)\n\n\tJust to be contra-contradictory :-), there is also the\noft-quoted passage \"I tell you: one must have chaos in one, to give\nbirth to a dancing star.\" Well, Severian doesn't create or *give\nbirth* to the New Sun, but he is full of chaos - all those autarchial\npersonas inside!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Has anyone else read these connections into Nietzsche, or (as is likely)\nseen ones I missed?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tIn his first book, _The Birth of Tragedy_, Nietzsche used a\ncouple of symbols that reappeared in _TSZ_: one was an eagle, the\nother was the Sun!\n\n\tThen again, I think Nietzsche's sun is associated with the\nApollonian spirit and I think Gene Wolfe has explicitly said that the\nNew Sun is non-Apollonian.\n\n\tHe also showed his dislike of Socrates and, by\nimplication, Plato. He accused Socrated of bullying people with talk,\nIIRC and called for a balance between the Apollonian spirit (rational,\nlinked with moderation) and the Dionisian spirit (chaotic, wild,\npotentially creative and destructive). This description is only a\nsmall part of TBoT - it is a very complex book, including Nietzsche's\nspeculations on Greek drama as an outgrowth of religion.\n\n\tDerek" } ] } ] }