{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1323", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1323, "subject": "Forlesen -- Thoughts?", "messages": 5, "voices": 5, "first": "1999-01-12T00:06:33+00:00", "last": "1999-01-12T11:29:24+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Redelfs", "address": "jredelfs at hotmail.com" }, "date": "1999-01-12T00:24:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Forlesen -- Thoughts?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow...I just finished reading Forlesen. Amazing. I think it might be my \nfavorite Wolfe story so far. One of the things I liked most about it was \nthe subtle humor, almost Dilbertian (ok, so Dilbert is not very \nsubtle...you know what I mean) in effect. The ending was pure Wolfe...we \ndon't _really_ expect him to spill the beans in the end like an Agatha \nChristie novel (though he likes doing odd things to keep his readers \nwary...maybe he'll try that one of these days). I don't know where to \nbegin to ask questions. I'm sure you've all talked about this story \nbefore, but how about some general opinions.\n\nOff the top of my head,\n\n 1. Is Forlesen a computer program?\n 2. Is he a ghost?\n 3. Are the other people computer programs?\n 4. What about the hitchhiker?\n 5. What about the red book?\n 6. And the sudden deaths?\n 7. Why does every surname start with an F...\n 8. What about those shifting columns that he saw, just before the cop \ncame...does that mean it was all an illusion?\n\nanyway..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1999-01-12T00:06:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Forlesen -- Thoughts?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "8. What about those shifting columns that he saw, just before the cop\ncame...does that mean it was all an illusion?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have a new theory about these shadows. (And that is all Forlesen saw,\nafter all, the shadows of whatever was holding up the road. And can we even\nbe sure of that?)\n\nThey were the shadows of beanstalks. Forlesen was up in the land of the\ngiants in the clouds. That's why all the distances were so vast and it took\nhim so long to drive to work!\n\nAnd I don't care beans if anyone disagrees with me. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One of the things I liked most about it was\nthe subtle humor, almost Dilbertian (ok, so Dilbert is not very\nsubtle...you know what I mean) in effect." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, it took me a moment to realize what you meant, but I got it and I\nthink you have a point here that I am not sure has been made before in this\nlist. This story is, among many other things, a satire on the\nlate-twentieth-century job in the industrialized world and specifically in\nUnited States of America and a pointed reminder of what is wrong with it.\nOr as Matt Groening put it, _Work is Hell_.\n\nNow, I don't claim this isn't obvious, but I am not sure the importance of\nthis aspect of the story has been adequately recognized on this list. After\nall, Wolfe does make this his Labor Day story in _Gene Wolfe's Book of\nDays_. And Wolfe has repeatedly said that he felt very lucky to have a job\nhe enjoyed, implying, at least, that most people do not.\n\n--------------------------------------------\nAnd now for another fun Gene Wolfe activity.\n--------------------------------------------\nGene Wolfe left some perfectly good holidays out of _Gene Wolfe's Book of\nDays_. I suggest that we all pick a missing holiday and suggest a story for\nit. I'll start: Groundhog's Day - \"Feather Tigers\".\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-01-12T10:21:39+00:00", "subject": "Re:(urth) Forlesen -- Thoughts?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jack Redelfs wrote:\n 1. Is Forlesen a computer program?\n 2. Is he a ghost?\n 3. Are the other people computer programs?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The computer theory was raised a while ago, but I could argue any one of\na dozen different explanations just as convincingly. I don't believe\nthere is supposed to be any one \"real\" explanation of where Forlesen is\nor what is going on, and that's much to Gene Wolfe's credit. The story\nis a satire on working life, and to tie it down to any one pat\nexplanation (\"Surprise! It was a computer simulation all along!\") is\ngreatly to reduce its power. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 4. What about the hitchhiker?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's (amongst other things) emblematic of an earlier, disenfranchised\ngeneration, who did real work rather than the meaningless paperchasing\nof Forlesen's colleagues." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 5. What about the red book?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's the Bible, or any religious book, or for that matter any text which\npurports to tell us how to live and what life is really all about.\nNotice how it loses something in translation?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 6. And the sudden deaths?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They're not sudden. 240 ours is a working lifetime in this world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 7. Why does every surname start with an F..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uh-uh. The surnames of Forlesen's generation begin with F, just as the\nfirst names begin with an E, but the initials of the generation they are\nreplacing were all C.D. And the generation before that, Adam Beale's\ngeneration, were all A.B.'s. For the purposes of satire, it's a nice way\nof delineating the generations while at the same time robbing people of\ntheir individuality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 8. What about those shifting columns that he saw, just before the cop \ncame...does that mean it was all an illusion?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dammed if I know. It may just be a way of suggesting the general\nunreality of this world (ie: nothing holds it up), but I've always felt\nthere's a more concrete explanation that I'm just missing." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1999-01-12T11:11:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Forlesen -- Thoughts?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 12, 12:06am, William H. Ansley wrote:\nSubject: Re: (urth) Forlesen -- Thoughts?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "8. What about those shifting columns that he saw, just before the cop\ncame...does that mean it was all an illusion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have a new theory about these shadows. (And that is all Forlesen saw,\nafter all, the shadows of whatever was holding up the road. And can we even\nbe sure of that?)\n\nThey were the shadows of beanstalks. Forlesen was up in the land of the\ngiants in the clouds. That's why all the distances were so vast and it took\nhim so long to drive to work!\n\nAnd I don't care beans if anyone disagrees with me. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One of the things I liked most about it was\nthe subtle humor, almost Dilbertian (ok, so Dilbert is not very\nsubtle...you know what I mean) in effect." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, it took me a moment to realize what you meant, but I got it and I\nthink you have a point here that I am not sure has been made before in this\nlist. This story is, among many other things, a satire on the\nlate-twentieth-century job in the industrialized world and specifically in\nUnited States of America and a pointed reminder of what is wrong with it.\nOr as Matt Groening put it, _Work is Hell_.\n\nNow, I don't claim this isn't obvious, but I am not sure the importance of\nthis aspect of the story has been adequately recognized on this list. After\nall, Wolfe does make this his Labor Day story in _Gene Wolfe's Book of\nDays_. And Wolfe has repeatedly said that he felt very lucky to have a job\nhe enjoyed, implying, at least, that most people do not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tYes, I think this is the heart of the story. I convinced a friend\nwho's a financial analyst at a bank to read the BOTNS, and he loved it. He\nbought Castle of Days at a used book store and read it. I asked what he\nthought of Forlesen, and he just grimaced and said \"It hits very close to\nhome.\"\n\tAre the shifting columns (I don't have my copy with me) where Forlesen\nsees the demon shapes or monsters or whatever? I always thought that was\nsimply part of the hell imagery, if so..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--------------------------------------------\nAnd now for another fun Gene Wolfe activity.\n--------------------------------------------\nGene Wolfe left some perfectly good holidays out of _Gene Wolfe's Book of\nDays_. I suggest that we all pick a missing holiday and suggest a story for\nit. I'll start: Groundhog's Day - \"Feather Tigers\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Easter would be _Seven American Nights_, I think. Or perhaps _The Detective of\nDreams_, but the first is my choice..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at crossover.com" }, "date": "1999-01-12T11:29:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Forlesen -- Thoughts?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:11 AM 1/12/99 -0500, Alex wrote:\nEaster would be _Seven American Nights_, I think. Or perhaps _The Detective \nof Dreams_, but the first is my choice..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Seven American Nights\" hands-down. \"Detective of Dreams\" is a Christian\nstory, but \"Seven American Nights\" actually has an Easter procession in it. \n\nWombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at crossover.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://ebbs.english.vt.edu/olp/nyrsf/nyrsf.html" } ] } ] }