{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/135", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 135, "subject": "On Track", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1997-08-08T12:59:14+00:00", "last": "1997-08-08T20:45:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "al at ny.playboy.com" }, "date": "1997-08-08T12:59:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Track", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mantis,\n\nHow about a collaboration? Once we figure out the approach.\n\nRe wound: well, yeah, I thought about that, even thought to twit Nutria\nabout it, but it's mostly described as in the chest (the Min, who seems to\nknow, says it may be a punctured lung), and only once in the side. But that\nwould go along with the Gnostic interpretation; a heavenly being sent down\nto an imperfect earth to bring knowledge (gnosis) to the chosen.\n\nYour readings are excellent. I'd reject the Changeling reading, however;\nOccam's razor (here used to trim whiskers!) is against it, given the\nbehavior of the robots (who serve only true men), the clothing evidence,\nhis unfamiliarity with the language (taught rather than learned as a baby),\nhis discomfort with the food, his understanding of space food and many\nother small things. Cim certainly is not trustworthy on anything.\n\nOh, re that. I read Joan Gordon on \"Traveler's Song\" (64-66) and while she\nis almost comically wrong on the specifics of the story---she gets almost\nevery one of the animals wrong, a batting average of about .100---she does\ninclude this quote from an interview with Wolfe:\n\n\"The protagonist gets his original orientation from a wolf tribe, then\nlives in a world in which the roles of moose, lion, deer, mink and so on\nare taken by semi-human beings. Wolves are winter symbols, of course, and\nbirds symbols of spring.\"\n\nThus Gordon sees the winged figure on the Great Sleigh as bird rather than\nangel. She also, puzzlingly to me, does not seem to think of the Great\nSleigh-ers as off-worlders. Well, they are, so there. She does have a very\ngood paragraph which goes over some of your points about the theme of the\nstory being the nature of humanity (66)\n\nBut this indicates, pretty clearly to me, that Cim is a mink. Cuttroat\nspeaks of her beautiful furs and teeth, then the fish and lakes and rivers\nare explained, also her inconstancy, and even her murdering her\nmate---minks are known to be sort of crazy, and may well go in for spousal\nabuse (Fishcatcher has apparently abused her). What I don't quite\nunderstand, then, is her doglike aspects, her groveling to the Sleigh-ers,\nher desire to be with them, her saying \"I love you\" to Cutthroat. I know\nthat ferrets, which are related, are often tamed. Are minks? I mean really\ntamed, not just farmed for furs.\n\nOne little point I'd like to make from my glancing through Jack\nLondon---one thing you've emphasized here is the violence, and you compare\nthat to Lindsay, not without reason. But science fiction as a branch of\nfantasy/children's literature is usually both bloodless in any real sense\nand sentimental (see Buffalo Gals as opposed to Traveler's Song). London,\non the other hand, is uncompromising and even brutal in his descriptions of\nthe harsh lives of his dogs and wolves, and if, as I suspect, Wolfe went\nback to him for some research on this story, he may have decided to go\nbeyond Kipling and get tough. The reactions of readers (us anyway) suggest\nthat it worked. \n\n-alga-" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "m.driussi", "address": "m.driussi at genie.com" }, "date": "1997-08-08T20:45:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Track", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reply: Item #4596281 from URTH at LISTS.BEST.COM@INET03#\n\nalga,\n\nSince Joan Gordon wrote that stuff and I read it years ago,\neven though I didn't remember it at the time, I also owe a nod to her\nwork in deciphering \"Tracking Song.\" But yeah, aside from mink\n(which is a very interesting blend of bear/dog attributes, as well as\nadding a ton of \"sex appeal\" associated with minks) the other animal\nguesses seem off. (Since sexual relations between minks is so brutal\nas to render female pelts not usable for fur, this nails down the\nissue of \"brutality\" re: comparing Mantru and Fishcatcher.)\n\nBack to the Changeling reading being destroyed by the robots'\nendorsement of Cutthroat as true human. Maybe, maybe not. Why favor\nthe robots without doubts? Mantru says they can't tell the diff,\nwhich is why they are always bringing him beast females. Though\nMantru seems to be the dwarf king under the hill, we wonder if he has\nany real power at all, since the robots have so much autonomy that\nthey behave in contrarian ways with impunity. Is Mantru more than a\nliving idol? Nevermind his dreams, what do the robots want? It\nappears that they want to pit creature against creature (Cutthroat,\nCim, and Ketin), either for vicarious bloodjoy of combat or perhaps\nas initiation for Cutthroat (who will then see the world as\nhuman/animal) whom they then pit against Mantru. \"Survival of\nthe fittest\" as experiments administered by robots.\n\n(There might be a hint that if Mantru did try to mate with a beast\nwoman, the robots would take this as a sign that he could no longer\ntell the difference and they would kill him. The robots have a\nvested interest in the difference between human and animal.)\n\nRobots who want what, exactly? Maybe they just want human masters to\nserve again? (Or is this too much like the whole Hierogrammate\n\"the-created-create-the-creators\" thing?) Or are they making a religion\nout of \"humanity\" which they aspire to become (Jonas-wise evolution),\nmaking Mantru a sort of sacred cow until such time as a better\nstronger cow comes along? (If valid, this is both obviously flawed\nas a church yet still touching in its own way.)\n\nOn to the names. Here are a few stray thoughts I had: \"Ketin\"\nreminds me of \"etin,\" which is another word for \"giant,\" and made\nsense because Ketin was described as a giant; \"Cim\" would be\npronounced \"Kim\" on one side of the dividing line and \"Sim\" on the\nother, but seeing it as \"Cim Glowing\" (based upon a plant or clouds\nor something other than snow?) made me think of \"Cimmeria,\" making me\nwonder if \"Cim\" might be taken as \"dark\"; \"Flashing Aa\" (another wolf\nfemale) well, \"Aa\" is consort to Shamash, fwiw.\n\nNot to put too much into this, but \"Red Kluy\" (red) (\"Cloe\"?),\n\"Flashing Aa\" (white), \"Cim Glowing\" (black).\n\nRe: London's wolf and dog stories, yep, I agree with you. And Gene\nWolfe merges that animal savagry with the all-to-human Lindsay\nsavagry to come up with something that says, at one level ala Kafka,\nthat nature's savagry is an absurd bureaucracy of pointless pain,\nsuffering, and death. Crossing circuits, making readers say \"Yow.\"\n\n=mantis=" } ] } ] }