{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1369", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1369, "subject": "FIFTH HEAD", "messages": 9, "voices": 4, "first": "1999-02-15T00:28:14+00:00", "last": "1999-02-17T10:28:23+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "1999-02-15T00:28:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FIFTH HEAD", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Greetings,\n My name is Roy C. Lackey. I only recently stumbled upon this list,\ndownloaded the archives and spent nearly two weeks reading them. About 4.5\nmegs. I was delighted to find such a group, although I confess that the two\nSUN series are not my favorites among Wolfe's work. I have been impressed by\nthe depth of some insights, amazed and sometimes amused by others and, taken\nall together, generally enlightened. That said, a couple of points:\n The consensus seems to be that the name of the narrator of _Fifth_Head_\nis \"Gene Wolfe\". I understand how this conclusion is arrived at, with\nregards to the surname. What I don't understand is how the given name can be\nreconciled with the \"roll call\" scene two pages after the definitive library\nshelf scene among the Ws. The impromptu class is begun by calling roll. The\nunnamed narrator is called first, then David. It's been a long time since I\nwas in school, but I distinctly remember \"D\" coming before \"G\". Have you\never known of a roll call that wasn't alphabetical? The scene is silly,\nanachronistic and irrelevant to the progress of the plot. Yet it is there.\nWhy? It must serve some purpose, in the Wolfean scheme of things.\n Secondly, the name of Lafferty has only come up four times in the\narchives, three of those just in passing, and none in any depth. I find that\nstrange, given Wolfe's affinity for the man and his works, not to mention\ntheir similar Weltanschauung. Is there a reason for this? Are those on the\nlist unfamiliar with Lafferty, or is his influence deemed irrelevant?\n Enough for now, but why so little activity of late? And where's Mr.\nBorski?\n\nRoy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1999-02-15T23:17:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) FIFTH HEAD", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The consensus seems to be that the name of the narrator of _Fifth_Head_\nis \"Gene Wolfe\". I understand how this conclusion is arrived at, with\nregards to the surname. What I don't understand is how the given name can be\nreconciled with the \"roll call\" scene two pages after the definitive library\nshelf scene among the Ws. The impromptu class is begun by calling roll. The\nunnamed narrator is called first, then David. It's been a long time since I\nwas in school, but I distinctly remember \"D\" coming before \"G\". Have you\never known of a roll call that wasn't alphabetical? The scene is silly,\nanachronistic and irrelevant to the progress of the plot. Yet it is there.\nWhy? It must serve some purpose, in the Wolfean scheme of things." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know of a roll call that is not\nalphabetical. In my family, when my mother wanted to make sure that I and\nall my brothers and sisters were present, she used to call our names in age\norder, mine first, since I was the eldest.\n\nSince the narrator is supposed to be older that David, this could explain\nthe order of the roll call. It could also be in order of social rank: the\nnarrator is the clone of Maitre and his heir, while David is a mere natural\nson, really little more than an experimental control.\n\n\nThe scene may be silly, although that is not quite the word I would use to\ndescribe it, but I don't see how you can call it anachronistic; surely we\ndon't know enough of the history and educational methods of Sainte Croix.\n\nThe roll call itself may be irrelevant to the plot, but the lesson that\nfollows is one of the major sources of information about the aborigines of\nSainte Anne. How reliable this information is, is quite another question,\nof course. I don't agree that every detail Wolfe puts in his stories is of\nequal significance. Perhaps the roll call was included just to add\nverisimilitude. (Obviously it didn't do so for you.)\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "1999-02-16T01:31:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Fifth Head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mantis:\n\n Point taken; but it was only a scratch. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"William H. Ansley\" Subject: Re: (urth) FIFTH\nHEAD\nDate: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 23:17:31\n\nSince the narrator is supposed to be older that David, this could explain\nthe order of the roll call. It could also be in order of social rank: the\nnarrator is the clone of Maitre and his heir, while David is a mere natural\nson, really little more than an experimental control." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " True, but at the time of the incident the narrator is only seven. It\nisn't until several years later, at about the age of puberty, that he learns\nhe is the older brother. Also, he doesn't know he's a clone at that point.\nFrom the narrators point of view there would be no rationale for anything\nother than a traditional, alphabetical roll call. Admittedly, it is a small\npoint. Perhaps it means nothing. A Wolfe by any other name is still a Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The scene may be silly, although that is not quite the word I would use to\ndescribe it, but I don't see how you can call it anachronistic; surely we\ndon't know enough of the history and educational methods of Sainte Croix." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I only said silly because, unlike the case of your family, there are\njust the two of them; and anachronistic because this is, minimally, several\ncenturies in our future. The likelihood of such a quaint custom surviving\nthat span of time seems, to me, improbable. But then, why what we see of St.\nCroix should be on a par with 19th century Europe (gas lights, carriages,\netc.), rather than the hi-tech society it would take to get there, is no\nless improbable. But I won't belabor the point.\n BTW, did anyone else think that \"The Last Thrilling Wonder Story\",\nbesides being a parody of pulp-genre SF, was a dig at Heinlein particularly?\nThat's what I thought when I first read it. My imagination, or is there a\nstory there?\n\nRoy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-02-16T11:39:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Fifth Head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy wrote:\nWilliam H. Ansley wrote\n\nSince the narrator is supposed to be older that David, this could explain\nthe order of the roll call. It could also be in order of social rank: the\nnarrator is the clone of Maitre and his heir, while David is a mere natural\nson, really little more than an experimental control." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " True, but at the time of the incident the narrator is only seven. It\nisn't until several years later, at about the age of puberty, that he learns\nhe is the older brother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, we don't have any reason to believe that the narrator -is- older than\nDavid. He -thinks- he's older because his father tells him that he's the heir." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The likelihood of such a quaint custom surviving\nthat span of time seems, to me, improbable. But then, why what we see of St.\nCroix should be on a par with 19th century Europe (gas lights, carriages,\netc.), rather than the hi-tech society it would take to get there, is no\nless improbable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not so. One of the things I've always liked about The Fifth Head of Cerberus is\nprecisely this up-yours to the stereotypical SF colony where the buildings are\nall new, the level of technology is high, and the dominant culture is American.\nYou need an awful lot of resources to establish and maintain a \"hi-tech society\",\nand the only resource St. Croix seems to have in any abundance is slave labour.\nEverything else has to be shipped from Earth, taking twenty years and costing a\nfortune. Easier to pull your carts with oxen. Don't forget too that St Croix has\nfought a war and lost. Whatever was achieved by the original French colonists has\nbeen blown to pieces, while the new regime is corrupt, decadent and bureaucratic,\nand governs a steadily declining population - hardly the circumstances under\nwhich a new society is likely to flourish." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "mark_millman at hmco.com" }, "date": "1999-02-16T08:51:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Fifth Head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tuesday 16 February 1999 at 07:31am GMT, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nBut then, why what we see of St. Croix\nshould be on a par with 19th century\nEurope (gas lights, carriages, etc.),\nrather than the hi-tech society it would\ntake to get there, is no less improbable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And at 8:32 am, Tony Ellis replied:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not so. One of the things I've always liked about\nThe Fifth Head of Cerberus is precisely this up-\nyours to the stereotypical SF colony where the\nbuildings are all new, the level of technology is\nhigh, and the dominant culture is American. You\nneed an awful lot of resources to establish and\nmaintain a \"hi-tech society\", and the only resource\nSt. Croix seems to have in any abundance is slave\nlabour. Everything else has to be shipped from\nEarth, taking twenty years and costing a fortune.\nEasier to pull your carts with oxen. Don't forget too\nthat St Croix has fought a war and lost. Whatever\nwas achieved by the original French colonists has\nbeen blown to pieces, while the new regime is\ncorrupt, decadent and bureaucratic, and governs\na steadily declining population - hardly the circum-\nstances under which a new society is likely to flourish." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I recall correctly, some of the \"low-tech\" features of Ste. Croix and\nSte. Anne are presented as secondary simplifications. For example, I seem\nto remember that Dr. Marsch recalls traveling by sailing ship--but that the\nsailing ships are safe, efficient, and regularly scheduled because there's\na working system of weather control that makes the fuelless sailing ship a\nworkable and economical solution for water transport. Of course, we also\nknow that Gene Wolfe just likes sail.\n\nWe also don't know whether one of the goals in settling Ste. Croix might\nhave been to go back to a simulacrum of an earlier, simpler way of life. I\njust read Cordwainer Smith's Instrumentality of Mankind stories (in the\nexcellent NEFSA collected edition, which I highly recommend), and one of\nthe devices Smith used was that of a return to earlier social patterns (or,\nmore accurately, to an approximation of them). The lure of \"the good old\ndays\" is a persistent one.\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "mark_millman at hmco.com" }, "date": "1999-02-16T08:56:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) FIFTH HEAD", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday 15 February 1999 at 6:28 am GMT, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nAnd where's Mr. Borski?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He had been experiencing operating difficulties--his browser would crash\nand bring down his computer every time he tried to do extensive research in\nthe archives--and I suppose he wasn't ever able to resolve the problem. I\ncertainly tried to help and failed miserably.\n\nIf you're out there, Robert, send up a flag!\n\nAnd, as I forgot to say in my last note (for which I hope you'll forgive\nme), welcome to the list, Mr. Lackey.\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1999-02-17T00:17:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Fifth Head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "William H. Ansley wrote\n\nSince the narrator is supposed to be older that David, this could explain\nthe order of the roll call. It could also be in order of social rank: the\nnarrator is the clone of Maitre and his heir, while David is a mere natural\nson, really little more than an experimental control." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " True, but at the time of the incident the narrator is only seven. It\nisn't until several years later, at about the age of puberty, that he learns\nhe is the older brother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, we don't have any reason to believe that the narrator -is- older\nthan\nDavid. He -thinks- he's older because his father tells him that he's the heir." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mostly agree. That is why I used the word \"supposed\" above, but it would\nhave been more accurate if I had said:\n\"Since the narrator supposes himself to be older that David...\"\nHowever, just because the narrator makes an unwarranted assumption doesn't\nmean it's wrong.\n\nIn any case, I think it is going too far to say that \"we don't have *any*\nreason to believe that the narrator -is- older than David.\" [*Emphasis*\nadded.] It is fairly clear that producing Number Five was a difficult\nprocess for Maitre whereas producing David would have been relatively\nsimple. Surely, if any part of David's reason for being was to be a control\nfor Number Five, Maitre would want them to be as close to the same age as\npossible. And surely the easiest way to accomplish this would be for Maitre\nto wait until he had a clone he was satisfied with and then cause David to\nbe conceived, making Number Five of necessity older than David.\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1999-02-16T23:58:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Fifth Head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Since the narrator is supposed to be older that David, this could explain\nthe order of the roll call. It could also be in order of social rank: the\nnarrator is the clone of Maitre and his heir, while David is a mere natural\nson, really little more than an experimental control." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " True, but at the time of the incident the narrator is only seven. It\nisn't until several years later, at about the age of puberty, that he learns\nhe is the older brother. Also, he doesn't know he's a clone at that point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From the narrators point of view there would be no rationale for anything\nother than a traditional, alphabetical roll call. Admittedly, it is a small\npoint. Perhaps it means nothing. A Wolfe by any other name is still a Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I really don't understand your argument here. How is what the narrator of\nTFHoC knows about his and David's relative ages or social status\ncontrolling the order of the roll?\n\nMr. Million is the one taking the roll and surely he would know (even if\nthe narrator didn't, at that point) that the narrator was older than David\n(if he is) and that the narrator was a clone of Maitre and would inherit\n_Maison du Chien_.\n\nIf you are saying that if the order of the roll wasn't alphabetical the\nnarrator would have noticed this and commented on it as an oddity, I\ndisagree. I think it is just as likely (in fact, more likely) that the\nnarrator would have just accepted the order in which Mr. Million called\ntheir names, especially considering that he must have been quite young when\nthe lessons started. Also that fact that there were only two names to be\ncalled makes the order of the names much less noticeable; after all there\nare only two possibilities.\n\nI think that the narrator, David and Mr. Million, in this scene, should be\nconsidered at least as much a family group (albeit a very nontraditional\none) as a teacher and students who are tied together by no other\nrelationship. In my experience, family groups sometimes use\nnon-alphabetical orders for calling roll.\n\nYou seem to feel that the only way to interpret the roll call in TFHoC is\nalphabetical. I think I have shown quite clearly an alternative roll call\norder is at least equally plausible. It seems only reasonable to me that\nyou should now accept my arguments. But, the contentious history of debate\nover TFHoC in this list leads me to expect that you won't.\n\nWell, I suppose that's why they call this a \"discussion\" group.\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-02-17T10:28:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: Re: (urth) Re: Fifth Head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "William H. Ansley wrote:\nI mostly agree. That is why I used the word \"supposed\" above, but it would\nhave been more accurate if I had said:\n\"Since the narrator supposes himself to be older that David...\"\nHowever, just because the narrator makes an unwarranted assumption doesn't\nmean it's wrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, but on the other hand Wolfe does like to have his is characters make the\nwrong assumption for the right reason (like Number Five mistaking the sepia tint of\nan old photograph for a novelty artistic process, or Vodalus' disbelief that our word\nfor the present could be the same as our word for gift). This biases me a little\ntoward the David-is-older camp." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In any case, I think it is going too far to say that \"we don't have *any*\nreason to believe that the narrator -is- older than David.\" [*Emphasis*\nadded.] It is fairly clear that producing Number Five was a difficult\nprocess for Maitre whereas producing David would have been relatively\nsimple. Surely, if any part of David's reason for being was to be a control\nfor Number Five, Maitre would want them to be as close to the same age as\npossible. And surely the easiest way to accomplish this would be for Maitre\nto wait until he had a clone he was satisfied with and then cause David to\nbe conceived, making Number Five of necessity older than David." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like your reasoning. But is David a \"control\"? As I recall, all Maitre says is \"I\nhoped to learn something from an outcrossing.\" It seems to me just as arguable that\nwhatever Maitre hoped to learn required him to have David on hand first." } ] } ] }