{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1377", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1377, "subject": "Digest urth.v022.n047", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "1999-02-19T12:13:12+00:00", "last": "1999-02-19T17:33:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Wells", "address": "adw at ovum.com" }, "date": "1999-02-19T17:33:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) RE: Digest urth.v022.n047", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jack Lyons \n\nMy wife likes to use the term \"Beatlesque\" sometimes, when\ndescribing a piece of music, because it reminds her of a\nBeatles song. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[wise words about the Beatles deleted :-]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Likewise Christian/Trinity imagery and metaphor. The Bible\nhas so many stories, lessons, admonitions, hints, rules,\nquotes and narrative situations that one could concievably\napply a Christian interpretation to anything one cares to.\nName a story - any story - and I'll detail the Christian\nmetaphor within." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(This tends to be where Theists and Atheists part ways,\nwith Theists declaring that this means that everything is\nspecial, and Atheists saying that if everything is special,\nthen nothing is special.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of the most stimulating and insightful paragraphs I have ever read on\nthe 'net in more years than I care to recall.\n\nI would quibble slightly with the exact wording, however. I would suggest\nthat instead\n\n\t- Theists see \"non-religious\" analogs of Christian (etc.) themes and\nideas as \"Platonic echoes\" - i.e. based in the fundamental ideas at the root\nof their belief\n\t- Atheists see things the other way around - i.e. that religions\npurloin concepts and stories from \"the real world\" and integate them\n(sometime with Really Big Nails :) into their own world view.\n\nI must say that the second of these still seems more plausible to me - as an\natheistic admirer of both Wolfe and Lafferty - but the distinction is, at\nleast in our lifetimes, purely metaphysical. \n\nnewt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kieran Mullen", "address": "kieran at brigit.nhn.ou.edu" }, "date": "1999-02-19T12:13:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v022.n047", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"William H. Ansley\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v022.n046\nDate: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:03:50 -0500" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a *lot* of Christic imagery in \"The Eyeflash Miracles,\" as I note\nin my first posting. I am deliberately ignoring this, except occasionally\nwhen it ties in with the Oz imagery. Wolfe manages to combine the two in\nclever and complex ways, as you might expect. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Oops! Sorry. I forgot that you had said you were limiting your\nanalysis to Oz stuff in these posts. My apologies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jack Lyons \nSubject: Re: The Eyeflash Miracles\nDate: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:51:18 -0500 (EST)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is \"Christic\" really a word? :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Yep :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unfortunately, The Beatles have created music in nearly\nevery genre imaginable - rock, heavy metal, classical,\nsoul, R&B, ambient, experimental - there's very little that\nthey haven't done. So \"Beatlesque\" doesn't really mean\nanything, if you think about it. What's \"Beatlesque\"?\nEverything, that's what." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I don't agree. It may not be exceptionally well defined,\nbut that's because it's a range property. Being tall is a \nrange property. In the context of standard human beings, the\nproperty of being tall is a bit fuzzy: it's silly to say 6'4\"\nis tall but 6'3\" is not. However, the concept of \"being tall\"\nis still useful. You can say that Michael Jordan is tall\nbut Michael Fox is not. Or that your child is \"tall for a \nfive year old.\" Otherwise language is useless. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Likewise Christian/Trinity imagery and metaphor. The Bible\nhas so many stories, lessons, admonitions, hints, rules,\nquotes and narrative situations that one could concievably\napply a Christian interpretation to anything one cares to.\nName a story - any story - and I'll detail the Christian\nmetaphor within." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " It depends upon how silly one wishes to be. St. Voyager is\nlike Gun Smoke because they both have guns. You need to have\nmore than just a common word or idea.\n\n Here's your challenge then: Find the Christic imagery in\nGilligan's Island. After that, the Beverly Hillbillies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(This tends to be where Theists and Atheists part ways,\nwith Theists declaring that this means that everything is\nspecial, and Atheists saying that if everything is special,\nthen nothing is special.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Hmm... I'm not sure I agree with your statement of the theist\nposition. \n\n I don't mean to be mean about your reply, it's just that I\ndon't agree with some styles of postmodern analysis wherein all texts\ncontain anything the reader wishes to see. I think that there are\ninterpretations of a text that are wrong, or at least untenable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Christian imagery in \"The Eyeflash Miracles\"? Sure, I'll buy\nthat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Hmm.... I can sell it to you wholesale. Let me talk to the boss...\n\n :-) \n\n Kieran" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Lyons", "address": "revjack at radix.net" }, "date": "1999-02-19T15:18:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v022.n047", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, Kieran Mullen wrote:\n\n:>Is \"Christic\" really a word? :)\n:\n: Yep :-)\n\nHey Ma! I learned a new word on the Internet!\n\nSeriously, I hadn't known of that word. I just spent a happy\ncouple of hours on the web, exploring the mysteries and the\nalchaemical aspects of the Christic Expression. Thanks!\n\n: It depends upon how silly one wishes to be. St. Voyager is\n:like Gun Smoke because they both have guns. You need to have\n:more than just a common word or idea.\n\nI've seen some pretty silly comparisons.\n\n: Here's your challenge then: Find the Christic imagery in\n: Gilligan's Island.\n\nOh ho! Few morality plays are more obviously Christic than\nan episode of Gilligan's Island, cautionary tales which\ncelebrate the Christic Mystery and warn against Atheism.\n\nS.S. Minnow = fish symbolism, miracles. The group barely\nsurvived the Storm (Wrath of God), but through the Miracle\nof the Fish, find themselves spared (Mercy of God) and cast\nonto the Island (Judgement of God). \n\nThe Fish (Minnow) is also the Vescia Pisces, the group's\nbridge between divine reality and the reality of the mundane\nworld. \n\nGilligan = Christ. Gilligan was a carpenter (ever notice,\nhe's the only one who built things?) The eternal\nconciliator, primary logos, humble and empathetic, Sacred\nHeart, Gilligan/Christ demonstrated to the other islanders\n(his flock), by example, the principle of Agape Love.\nGilligan is the only islander without sin. The white boat\nhat is his Crown, an exaggerated yarmulke symbolizing his\nbeing the King of the Jews (INRI). \n\nIsland = God. You can't escape the Island. The Island\nprovides for the castaways (\"castaway\" being a pejorative\nterm for those who have turned their backs on God and The\nSon). Attempts to leave the Island are punished in the Old\nTestament way (punishment/coconuts fallind on head), while\nfailure to take The Son seriously tends to yeild a more New\nTestament result of embarrassed introspection and subsequent\nreconciliation (\"We're sorry we didn't believe you,\nGilligan!\"). \n\nIn the series, The Virgin Mary(Anne) kept in her hut a\ntable, or altar, if you will, containing various dear icons\nand photographs, along with some stones and crystals. This\nis a clear representation of the Christic Altar, protected\nby Gilligan/Jesus and Mary(Anne) in episode #54 when the\nProfessor wanted the crystals for his radio. \n\nThe cave that the castaways occasionally have to hide in\n(for whatever reason) obviously represents The Sanctuary of\nKheper Ra.\n\nOther castaways play minor roles of the Seven Deadly Sins -\nThe Skipper (Gluttony, Anger), Mr Howell (Greed/Avarice)\n[c.f. Jim Backus/Bacchus, \"Thirst and Howl\" - deep metaphors\nhere!], Lovey (Sloth), and Ginger (Lust).\n\nThere is great debate whether The Professor merely\nrepresents Pride, or is actually a metaphor for Thoth\n(Office of Christ = Tenure). \n\nBut the most telling thing, I think, is the final verse of\n\"The Ballad of Gilligan's Island\", removed from the\nbroadcast pilot by censors in 1964, which summarizes the\nrather Baptist \"but through me\" flavor of the whole show\n(sing along with me, won't you?) \n\n Because I could not stop for Death, \n He kindly stopped for me; \n The carriage held but just ourselves \n And immortality. \n\n Here on Gilligan's Isle!\n\n\n: I don't mean to be mean about your reply, it's just\n:that I don't agree with some styles of postmodern analysis\n:wherein all texts contain anything the reader wishes to\n:see. I think that there are interpretations of a text that\n:are wrong, or at least untenable. \n\nFor what it's worth, I don't think anyone on this list is\nmean, least of all you. Even some of the more heated\nexchanges here yield more light than heat. :)\n\nWhether or not I agree with the postmodernists depends on\nmy current degree of cynicysm, and my medication." } ] } ] }