Subject: (urth) RE: Digest urth.v022.n047

From: David Wells <adw at ovum.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:33:59 +0000

> From: Jack Lyons <revjack at Radix.Net>
> 
>My wife likes to use the term "Beatlesque" sometimes, when
>describing a piece of music, because it reminds her of a
>Beatles song. 

[wise words about the Beatles deleted :-]

>Likewise Christian/Trinity imagery and metaphor. The Bible
>has so many stories, lessons, admonitions, hints, rules,
>quotes and narrative situations that one could concievably
>apply a Christian interpretation to anything one cares to.
>Name a story - any story - and I'll detail the Christian
>metaphor within.

>(This tends to be where Theists and Atheists part ways,
>with Theists declaring that this means that everything is
>special, and Atheists saying that if everything is special,
>then nothing is special.)

One of the most stimulating and insightful paragraphs I have ever read on
the 'net in more years than I care to recall.

I would quibble slightly with the exact wording, however. I would suggest
that instead

	- Theists see "non-religious" analogs of Christian (etc.) themes and
ideas as "Platonic echoes" - i.e. based in the fundamental ideas at the root
of their belief
	- Atheists see things the other way around - i.e. that religions
purloin concepts and stories from "the real world" and integate them
(sometime with Really Big Nails :) into their own world view.

I must say that the second of these still seems more plausible to me - as an
atheistic admirer of both Wolfe and Lafferty - but the distinction is, at
least in our lifetimes, purely metaphysical. 

newt

*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

---

From: Kieran Mullen <kieran at brigit.nhn.ou.edu>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:13:12 +0000

>From: "William H. Ansley" <wansley at warwick.net>
>Subject: Re: (urth) Re:  Digest urth.v022.n046
>Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:03:50 -0500

>There is a *lot* of Christic imagery in "The Eyeflash Miracles," as I note
>in my first posting. I am deliberately ignoring this, except occasionally
>when it ties in with the Oz imagery. Wolfe manages to combine the two in
>clever and complex ways, as you might expect. 

   Oops!  Sorry.  I forgot that you had said you were limiting your
analysis to Oz stuff in these posts.  My apologies.

>Subject: Re: The Eyeflash Miracles
>Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:51:18 -0500 (EST)

>Is "Christic" really a word? :)

   Yep :-)

>Unfortunately, The Beatles have created music in nearly
>every genre imaginable - rock, heavy metal, classical,
>soul, R&B, ambient, experimental - there's very little that
>they haven't done. So "Beatlesque" doesn't really mean
>anything, if you think about it. What's "Beatlesque"?
>Everything, that's what.

   I don't agree.  It may not be exceptionally well defined,
but that's because it's a range property.  Being tall is a 
range property.  In the context of standard human beings, the
property of being tall is a bit fuzzy: it's silly to say 6'4"
is tall but 6'3" is not.  However, the concept of "being tall"
is still useful.  You can say that Michael Jordan is tall
but Michael Fox is not.  Or that your child is "tall for a 
five year old."   Otherwise language is useless.  

>Name a story - any story - and I'll detail the Christian

    It depends upon how silly one wishes to be.  St. Voyager is
like Gun Smoke because they both have guns.   You need to have
more than just a common word or idea.

    Here's your challenge then:  Find the Christic imagery in
Gilligan's Island.  After that, the Beverly Hillbillies.

>then nothing is special.)

   Hmm... I'm not sure I agree with your statement of the theist
position.  

    I don't mean to be mean about your reply, it's just that I
don't agree with some styles of postmodern analysis wherein all texts
contain anything the reader wishes to see.  I think that there are
interpretations of a text that are wrong, or at least untenable.

>Christian imagery in "The Eyeflash Miracles"? Sure, I'll buy
>that.

   Hmm.... I can sell it to you wholesale.  Let me talk to the boss...

            :-) 

                 Kieran

---

From: Jack Lyons <revjack at radix.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:18:07 +0000

On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, Kieran Mullen wrote:

:>Is "Christic" really a word? :)
:
:   Yep :-)

Hey Ma! I learned a new word on the Internet!

Seriously, I hadn't known of that word. I just spent a happy
couple of hours on the web, exploring the mysteries and the
alchaemical aspects of the Christic Expression. Thanks!

:    It depends upon how silly one wishes to be.  St. Voyager is
:like Gun Smoke because they both have guns.   You need to have
:more than just a common word or idea.

I've seen some pretty silly comparisons.

:     Here's your challenge then:  Find the Christic imagery in
: Gilligan's Island.

Oh ho! Few morality plays are more obviously Christic than
an episode of Gilligan's Island, cautionary tales which
celebrate the Christic Mystery and warn against Atheism.

S.S. Minnow = fish symbolism, miracles. The group barely
survived the Storm (Wrath of God), but through the Miracle
of the Fish, find themselves spared (Mercy of God) and cast
onto the Island (Judgement of God). 

The Fish (Minnow) is also the Vescia Pisces, the group's
bridge between divine reality and the reality of the mundane
world. 

Gilligan = Christ. Gilligan was a carpenter (ever notice,
he's the only one who built things?) The eternal
conciliator, primary logos, humble and empathetic, Sacred
Heart, Gilligan/Christ demonstrated to the other islanders
(his flock), by example, the principle of Agape Love.
Gilligan is the only islander without sin. The white boat
hat is his Crown, an exaggerated yarmulke symbolizing his
being the King of the Jews (INRI). 

Island = God. You can't escape the Island. The Island
provides for the castaways ("castaway" being a pejorative
term for those who have turned their backs on God and The
Son). Attempts to leave the Island are punished in the Old
Testament way (punishment/coconuts fallind on head), while
failure to take The Son seriously tends to yeild a more New
Testament result of embarrassed introspection and subsequent
reconciliation ("We're sorry we didn't believe you,
Gilligan!"). 

In the series, The Virgin Mary(Anne) kept in her hut a
table, or altar, if you will, containing various dear icons
and photographs, along with some stones and crystals. This
is a clear representation of the Christic Altar, protected
by Gilligan/Jesus and Mary(Anne) in episode #54 when the
Professor wanted the crystals for his radio. 

The cave that the castaways occasionally have to hide in
(for whatever reason) obviously represents The Sanctuary of
Kheper Ra.

Other castaways play minor roles of the Seven Deadly Sins -
The Skipper (Gluttony, Anger), Mr Howell (Greed/Avarice)
[c.f. Jim Backus/Bacchus, "Thirst and Howl" - deep metaphors
here!], Lovey (Sloth), and Ginger (Lust).

There is great debate whether The Professor merely
represents Pride, or is actually a metaphor for Thoth
(Office of Christ = Tenure). 

But the most telling thing, I think, is the final verse of
"The Ballad of Gilligan's Island", removed from the
broadcast pilot by censors in 1964, which summarizes the
rather Baptist "but through me" flavor of the whole show
(sing along with me, won't you?) 

     Because I could not stop for Death, 
     He kindly stopped for me; 
     The carriage held but just ourselves 
     And immortality. 

     Here on Gilligan's Isle!

:    I don't mean to be mean about your reply, it's just
:that I don't agree with some styles of postmodern analysis
:wherein all texts contain anything the reader wishes to
:see.  I think that there are interpretations of a text that
:are wrong, or at least untenable. 

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone on this list is
mean, least of all you. Even some of the more heated
exchanges here yield more light than heat. :)

Whether or not I agree with the postmodernists depends on
my current degree of cynicysm, and my medication.

-- 
_________________
revjack at radix.net