{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/139", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 139, "subject": "Tracquing Song", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "1997-08-09T10:52:35+00:00", "last": "1997-08-09T22:44:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1997-08-09T10:52:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracquing Song", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tOkay, Okay! This is Nutria, at last. My server has been broken, and only\ntoday have I read all of Alga's challenges to me!\n\n\tNow I have all these posts to respond to! I'll try to enumerate my\ncomments in some rational way.\n\n\t1. Cordo Smith. Yeah, I read Smith, and wrote a long analytical essay on\nhim, years ago, and then I read \"Fifth Head\" and \"Island Etc.\" as my first\ntwo Lupine reads. (Yep, I have a beatup copy of the original \"Island Etc.\"\nAnybody want to offer me $500.00 for it? ) Looking at Wolfe's themes,\nperspectives, etc., I saw him as a new Smith, and assumed a strong\nLinebargerianesque influence; but he has always denied such. So, I think we\nhave a case of two men with very similar beliefs and interests writing on\nvery similar things. \n\n\t2. Mantis, I think you have to pay attention to the dates of writing and\npublication. \"Tracking Song\" fits nicely with the themes of \"Fifth Head.\"\nTrying to relate it to the Severian Quintet may be quixotic; at least in\nthe wrong order. Like \"Fifth Head,\" \"Tracking Song\" is about the question\nWhat Is Man?, a very Linebargerianesque concern. To be sure, TS (Tracking\nSong) does anticipate lots of stuff in Severian, but the latter does not, I\nsubmit, interpret the former.\n\n\t3. Let's see. Oh, Christian themes. I'm not sure that this story has such\na concern/structure. Maybe I've missed something, but it does not appear\nso, even in a \"vague\" way, as in Pandora.\n\n\t4. The Min: Well, as Holmes used to say, \"When you have eliminated the\nprobable, go with the improbable\" (or words to that effect). The Min are\nJonases, except that Jonas despised the flesh, while the Min covet it. That\nis, they are robots trying to be men. They are perverted versions of the\nolder robots that Cutthroat finds, who exist to serve man.\n\n\t5. The Vamps and the Winged Man: Here does seem to be a parallel. We\nencounter the Vampires on the way to the dead city and the evil palace of\nan evil man. We encounter the Winged Man on the way to the benevolent Great\nSleigh that is seeking to help the underpeople. (See 13 below; so much for\nkeeping these in decent order.)\n\n\t6. Cim's love for Cutthroat. I can see that this might be doglike, but the\nmink is better. Read carefully, and see that ALL the underpeople \"love\"\nCutthroat. The wolves love him and send him away so they won't lose control\nand eat him. The pigs love him from the start. Etc. \n\n\t7. Giants: I assume they are all big because over time the lesser gravity\nof this place has caused them to get bigger. That is, ALL the underpeople\nseem to be big, except for the little bear (baby) at the end.\n\n\t8. Mars? This world seems too small for Mars. Yet it has more gravity than\nan asteriod would have. Somehow we have not yet determined how the Great\nSleigh has circumnavigated the globe, if it be Mars (and there are good\nindications that it is). I think we have to assume that once the thaw\nbegan, the Sleigh stopped travelling and interviewing underpeople, and just\nbooked it around the globe to pick up Cutthroat.\n\n\t9. The scar on Cutthroat's neck seems important. I suggest we look and see\nwhat race might have cut his throat, say in an initial encounter. His\nassociates on the Great Sleigh have healed him, but have decided to leave\nhim behind to record impressions for them. OR, they left him behind for\nthis purpose, and after a while he was attacked and his throat was cut and\nhe lost his memory. Being a future man with future resources in his body,\nhis throat healed and he did not die. We pick up the story at this point.\nWhaddaya think?\n\n\t10. Cim's rod. Electric? Future science? My guess is not. Cutthroat calls\nit poison, and we know that his memory does work when it comes to\nidentifying artifacts. This does not explain how they can eat poisoned\nfish, but it seems the best explanation to me anyway, at this point. I\nassume Cim and her people just make these things out of the plants in their\narea. If it were electric it would have short-circuited the robot parts of\nthe Min.\n\n\t11. The horned staff. Well, the horns might be a Satanic allusion. Only\ntrue men can hold it? Well, Cim holds it. What does that mean? Perhaps that\nthe underpeople have become true men, or in essence are true men. As Alga\nsaid, they are humanity if not descendents of Adam.\n\n\t12. Let me see if I can tease out a bit more. Originally, Mars was ruled\nby men, served by robots, who raised up animals to be underpeople. At some\npoint, the men fell into evil and began to exploit and harm the\nunderpeople. Such depraved men killed themselves off eventually, so that\nonly an appropriately dwarfed and twisted representative of their race\nremains. (But is he really a man? See 16 below.) As a result of human\nself-destruction, the terraforming machines have worn out, so now good,\nkindly humans come from space to set things back up again.\n\n\t13. If we want to know about the Great Sleigh (and who doesn't), I suggest\nwe simply invert what we see in the underground city. Cutthroat has the\nfeeling that he is approaching the Great Sleigh as he approaches the city.\nTo wit:\n\nUnderground city // Sleigh on Ground\nUnderground machines // New \"sun\" in sky\nCaricature palace with turrets // Sleigh as \"building with buildings on it\"\t\nVampires at entrance // Winged man at front\nEvil dwarf // Kindly men\nEvil rod to kill underpeople // Good healing for Fishcatcher\n\n\t14. Cim's suggestion that Cutthroat is not a human. Alga has proved that\nhe is. I suggest she raises the question because of the similarity to\n\"Fifth Head,\" where it is initially unclear whether VRT is human or not.\nCutthroat is; VRT is not. The proof is not necessarily the word and actions\nof the Min, but the fact that Cutthroat recalls all kinds of details that\nindicate he comes from a technological society.\n\n\t15. The days. I cannot help but think of creation week, but it only fits\nin a few places. On the sixth day, God brought Eve to Adam, and on the\nsixth day, Cutthroat picks up Cim Glowing. The 14th day is \"significant.\"\nHowso? It is a second sabbath. It is also the day of Passover. Probably\nnot. Rather, it is the day the solar mirror is to be set up, which\nCutthroat knows in the back of his darkened mind.\n\n\t16. Is Mantru really a man? I suggest this may be the explanation for his\nfury when Cutthroat says that his statement is false. I note that\nCutthroat's staff kills him. Mantru seems to me perhaps to be an\nunderperson passing himself off as a man. As we know from Cim's holding the\nstaff, underpeople can indeed hold it.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "m.driussi", "address": "m.driussi at genie.com" }, "date": "1997-08-09T22:44:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracquing Song", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reply: Item #5721678 from URTH at LISTS.BEST.COM@INET#\n\nNutria,\n\nAh, there you are!\n\nRe: \"Tracking Song\" and FIFTH HEAD. While I'm really =not= trying to\npaint TS as a miniature to TBOTNS (as, say, \"A Cabin on the Coast\"\nstands to CASTLEVIEW, or \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\" stands to THE\nFIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS ), still, I'll take your statement as a\nchallenge. And imho, nope, there are no famous scenes from FIFTH\nHEAD that jump into my mind as I read TS.\n\n\"My grandfather is a robot and my aunt is myself\"--nope.\n\"I stuck my head through the library window\"--nope.\n\"Nearly the whole city was related to me\"--nope.\n\"So I killed my `father' and took his place\"--nope.\n\"The most enigmatic of the `aliens' are actually from Earth\"--nope.\n\"So I killed my employer, an anthropologist, and took his place\"--nope.\n\"The mast of the ship grows down like a tree root, the ship doesn't\nmove\"--nope.\n\nAnd so on.\n\nI agree with you that =thematically= TS has some similarities with FHC.\n(Perhaps strongest with the abo centered middle tale. Then again, FHC\nhas no terraforming whatsoever; nor is there a shift from a \"dying world\"\nto a \"reborn world\"; and the FHC issue is, imho, more alien/human rather\nthan animal/human, if one cares to make such distinctions--clearly I do!)\nI was relating the scenes that reminded me of the later work--if there\nare specific scenes in TS that remind you of exact scenes in FHC, by all\nmeans mention them!\n\nalga,\n\nI left off another reading, the Shaman's Death Quest. Keep an eye\nout (but not like Odin!) for Lap or Scandinavian tales of a Santa-like\nsleigh--this Great Sleigh business sounds so familiar, but I can't\nfind the fingerhold.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1997-08-09T18:37:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Tracquing Song", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantoid,\n\n\tAll I meant was that the theme of \"what is man\" is at the core of both.\nNothing more specific. Narrative-wise, they are radically different.\n\nNutroid" } ] } ] }