{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1390", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1390, "subject": "Two Wolfe Comments", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "1999-02-25T11:58:30+00:00", "last": "1999-02-28T23:51:47+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "CRCulver", "address": "crculver at aol.com" }, "date": "1999-02-25T11:58:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Two Wolfe Comments", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1) I don't know the origin of the word \"Madregot\" (the name of the Brook\nbeyond Briah), but perhaps it is related to the Spanish word \"Madrugada,\"\nwhich means \"dawn.\" This seems to fit, being another example of the solar\nmotif which is predominant in the Book of the New Sun. Maybe Mantis could\nclear this up.\n\n2) We've discussed before the influence of T.S. Eliot on Wolfe, particularly\nfrom \"The Waste Lands.\" However, the poem \"The Love Song of J. Alfred\nPrufrock,\" also by Eliot seems to be an inspiration for _Peace_. The narrator\nof \"Prufrock\" is an elderly gentleman who is looking back on his life, and the\nmessage is that old age is basically a living death. However, I've always\nfavoured the notion that maybe Prufrock is actually dead, as Weer is.\nFor those interested, the J. Alfred Prufrock Company, www.prufrock.org, has\nthe poem on their website, where it can be viewed for free (under \"Poem\").\nHowever, the rest of the site is retail tripe.\n\nCheers,\n\nChristopher R. Culver \nPresident Pro-Tempore of USEJ\nPrezidanto Dumtempa de USEJ\n--------------------------------------------------\nhttp://ttt.esperanto.org/us/USEJ/welcome.html" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-02-25T15:36:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Two Wolfe Comments", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Christopher R. Culver wrote:\n1) I don't know the origin of the word \"Madregot\" (the name of the Brook\nbeyond Briah), but perhaps it is related to the Spanish word \"Madrugada,\"\nwhich means \"dawn.\" This seems to fit, being another example of the solar\nmotif which is predominant in the Book of the New Sun. Maybe Mantis could\nclear this up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Madregot is a kabbalistic term which can be translated either as \"the stages\" or\n\"the steps\". I think. Ties in with the whole Briah-Yesod kabbalah thing, clearly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) We've discussed before the influence of T.S. Eliot on Wolfe, particularly\nfrom \"The Waste Lands.\" However, the poem \"The Love Song of J. Alfred\nPrufrock,\" also by Eliot seems to be an inspiration for _Peace_. The narrator\nof \"Prufrock\" is an elderly gentleman who is looking back on his life, and the\nmessage is that old age is basically a living death." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I couldn't agree that the message of \"Prufrock\" is \"old age is a living death\".\nIf it's summed up anywhere, it's in the lines \"Do I dare\\Disturb the universe?\"\nIt's about a life wasted in hesitation and self-doubt, and for that reason I\ndon't really see it as an inspiration for Peace: Weer never seems to leave the\nsmall town where he was born, but surely he's more dynamic than poor old\nspineless Prufrock?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "CRCulver", "address": "crculver at aol.com" }, "date": "1999-02-28T22:25:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: Re: (urth) Two Wolfe Comments", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "<>\n\nI disagree. My English teacher and most of the literary criticsm about the\npoem think that \"Prufrock\" is about the an \"embittered and horny old man\" (I\ncan provide the source for this tomorrow once I get to the library) who cannot\naccept his lack of power when it comes to seducing women. And so, without the\nability to propogate, his life begins to be without attraction.\nThe poem, does, however, go on to a sort of nihilistic viewpoint in which the\nlives of people, no matter how old they are, are basically pointless.\n\nI shall review the literary criticism tomorrow and prepare an explanation of\nwhy I think the poem is applicable to PEACE.\n\nChristopher R. Culver \nPresident Pro-Tempore of USEJ\nPrezidanto Dumtempa de USEJ\n--------------------------------------------------\nhttp://ttt.esperanto.org/us/USEJ/welcome.html" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1999-02-28T18:51:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: Re: (urth) Two Wolfe Comments", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Feb 28, 5:25pm, CRCulver at aol.com wrote:\nSubject: Re: Re: (urth) Two Wolfe Comments\n<>\n\nI disagree. My English teacher and most of the literary criticsm about the\npoem think that \"Prufrock\" is about the an \"embittered and horny old man\" (I\ncan provide the source for this tomorrow once I get to the library) who\ncannot\naccept his lack of power when it comes to seducing women. And so, without the\nability to propogate, his life begins to be without attraction.\nThe poem, does, however, go on to a sort of nihilistic viewpoint in which the\nlives of people, no matter how old they are, are basically pointless.\n\nI shall review the literary criticism tomorrow and prepare an explanation of\nwhy I think the poem is applicable to PEACE.\n\nChristopher R. Culver \nPresident Pro-Tempore of USEJ\nPrezidanto Dumtempa de USEJ\n--------------------------------------------------\nhttp://ttt.esperanto.org/us/USEJ/welcome.html\n\n*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/\n\n-- End of excerpt from CRCulver at aol.com" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tWell, I don't really think that Prufrock is about anything so Freudian\nas inability to procreate or seduce--Prufrock's failure to declare his love for\nthe \"That is not what I meant at all\" woman is merely symptomatic. I think the\nepigraph from the Inferno is telling--this is a vision of Hell in life.\nPrufrock is incapable of \"disturbing the universe,\" of offering love, in\ngeneral of facing the transcendent--\"I have seen the moment of my greatness\nflicker,/ And I have seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker,/And in\nshort I was afraid.\"\n\tThe poem is in the line that develops into \"The Waste Land,\" a far more\ncomplete vision of Hell in life, but with a hint of possible redemption, to the\nexplicitly religious vision of \"Four Quartets.\" \n\tAs to relevance to PEACE, there's probably some in that Wolfe and Eliot\nwould have somewhat similar views of the theme of a man exploring his life, but\nbeyond that I'm not convinced. It seems to me that PEACE is not concerned\nprecisely with Weer's inability to act or love, but with something more\ndifficult to grasp--something about the way the story of his life is really\nother people's story. I also would say that PEACE offers more hope for the\nrepose of the soul of Weer than \"Prufrock\" does for poor Prufrock.\n\t" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1999-02-28T23:51:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: Re: (urth) Two Wolfe Comments", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems to me that PEACE is not concerned\nprecisely with Weer's inability to act or love, but with something more\ndifficult to grasp--something about the way the story of his life is really\nother people's story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce,\n\nThank you. I think this is the single most insightful comment I've ever\nread about _Peace_, which is my favorite work by Wolfe. As soon as I get a\nchance I'm going to have to read _Peace_ again with this in mind. I think\nit will help me make more sense of it.\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] } ] }