Subject: (urth) Two Wolfe Comments

From: CRCulver <crculver at aol.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:58:30 +0000

1) I don't know the origin of the word "Madregot" (the name of the Brook
beyond Briah), but perhaps it is related to the Spanish word "Madrugada,"
which means "dawn." This seems to fit, being another example of the solar
motif which is predominant in the Book of the New Sun. Maybe Mantis could
clear this up.

2) We've discussed before the influence of T.S. Eliot on Wolfe, particularly
from "The Waste Lands." However, the poem "The Love Song of J. Alfred
Prufrock," also by Eliot seems to be an inspiration for _Peace_. The narrator
of "Prufrock" is an elderly gentleman who is looking back on his life, and the
message is that old age is basically a living death. However, I've always
favoured the notion that maybe Prufrock is actually dead, as Weer is.
For those interested, the J. Alfred Prufrock Company, www.prufrock.org, has
the poem on their website, where it can be viewed for free (under "Poem").
However, the rest of the site is retail tripe.

Cheers,

Christopher R. Culver <crculver at aol.com>
President Pro-Tempore of USEJ
Prezidanto Dumtempa de USEJ
--------------------------------------------------
http://ttt.esperanto.org/us/USEJ/welcome.html

*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

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From: Tony Ellis <tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:36:34 +0000

> motif which is predominant in the Book of the New Sun. Maybe Mantis could

Madregot is a kabbalistic term which can be translated either as "the stages" or
"the steps". I think. Ties in with the whole Briah-Yesod kabbalah thing, clearly.

> message is that old age is basically a living death.
>
I couldn't agree that the message of "Prufrock" is "old age is a living death".
If it's summed up anywhere, it's in the lines "Do I dare\Disturb the universe?"
It's about a life wasted in hesitation and self-doubt, and for that reason I
don't really see it as an inspiration for Peace: Weer never seems to leave the
small town where he was born, but surely he's more dynamic than poor old
spineless Prufrock?

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From: CRCulver <crculver at aol.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:25:35 +0000

<<I couldn't agree that the message of "Prufrock" is "old age is a living
death". If it's summed up anywhere, it's in the lines "Do I dare\Disturb the
universe?" It's about a life wasted in hesitation and self-doubt>>

I disagree. My English teacher and most of the literary criticsm about the
poem think that "Prufrock" is about the an "embittered and horny old man" (I
can provide the source for this tomorrow once I get to the library) who cannot
accept his lack of power when it comes to seducing women. And so, without the
ability to propogate, his life begins to be without attraction.
The poem, does, however, go on to a sort of nihilistic viewpoint in which the
lives of people, no matter how old they are, are basically pointless.

I shall review the literary criticism tomorrow and prepare an explanation of
why I think the poem is applicable to PEACE.

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From: Alex David Groce <adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu>
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:51:53 +0000

On Feb 28,  5:25pm, CRCulver at aol.com wrote:
> Subject: Re:  Re: (urth) Two Wolfe Comments
>-- End of excerpt from CRCulver at aol.com

	Well, I don't really think that Prufrock is about anything so Freudian
as inability to procreate or seduce--Prufrock's failure to declare his love for
the "That is not what I meant at all" woman is merely symptomatic.  I think the
epigraph from the Inferno is telling--this is a vision of Hell in life.
Prufrock is incapable of "disturbing the universe," of offering love, in
general of facing the transcendent--"I have seen the moment of my greatness
flicker,/ And I have seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker,/And in
short I was afraid."
	The poem is in the line that develops into "The Waste Land," a far more
complete vision of Hell in life, but with a hint of possible redemption, to the
explicitly religious vision of "Four Quartets."  
	As to relevance to PEACE, there's probably some in that Wolfe and Eliot
would have somewhat similar views of the theme of a man exploring his life, but
beyond that I'm not convinced.  It seems to me that PEACE is not concerned
precisely with Weer's inability to act or love, but with something more
difficult to grasp--something about the way the story of his life is really
other people's story.  I also would say that PEACE offers more hope for the
repose of the soul of Weer than "Prufrock" does for poor Prufrock.

-- 
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." - John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)
Senior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)
'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President
608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce

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From: William H. Ansley <wansley at warwick.net>
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:51:47 +0000

>It seems to me that PEACE is not concerned
>other people's story.

Alex David Groce,

Thank you. I think this is the single most insightful comment I've ever
read about _Peace_, which is my favorite work by Wolfe. As soon as I get a
chance I'm going to have to read _Peace_ again with this in mind. I think
it will help me make more sense of it.

William Ansley