{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1469", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1469, "subject": "Adam and Atom", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "1999-04-01T15:38:00+00:00", "last": "1999-04-05T16:59:08+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "m.driussi", "address": "m.driussi at genie.com" }, "date": "1999-04-01T15:38:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Adam and Atom", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy,\n\nThe focus on the play and its authorship seems to place it entirely\nin the realm of fiction.\n\nMaybe it is more like the Periodical Table of Elements. A document\ndescribing real and hypothetical things, however hampered by the\nlanguage and understanding of the time.\n\nWho authored the elements? Well, nobody mortal--they were uncovered\n(in a way we can no longer say continents were \"discovered\") by\nvarious people at various times. Why does the earliest version\ndiffer so much from the latest version? Further refinement. Now\nthat we have the Table and atomic theory, as we cast our eyes back to\nthe ancient Greeks it seems like some of them were very close to the\nTruth as we now know it--did =they= discover it and then lose it?\nNo, they did not, but they were among the pioneers who began the\nprocess by which the Table came into being.\n\nMy point being that the play is a Truth (Briah/Yesod, the whole deal)\nrendered in terms that its illiterate audience can grasp in some way,\nshape, or form, at one entertaining sitting.\n\nAs for the universe of the hard choice, or \"why Urth must be\ndestroyed so that Ushas can be created.\" That is the central point\nof the entire Urth Cycle, after all. While we might all wish for the\nrivers of milk and honey of the New Jerusalem in =this= universe,\nskypie for everyone in the here and now with no guilt and no regrets,\nstill the text resists such utopia. But it isn't as if Severian\ndoesn't =try=: for example, in the lazaret at the front, Severian\nsuddenly tries to heal everybody at once.\n\nThe Claw shuts down.\n\nWhat this means =exactly= depends upon several factors, including how\nyou interpret the Claw (dumb object or intelligent other) and/or the\nnature of healing it provides (it seems to leach from Severian's life\nforce--thus, it might be physically impossible for him to heal a\nwhole tent full: it would kill him and make them feel only slightly\nbetter. The Claw as circuit breaker.). But here is one case where\nSeverian tries and is thwarted.\n\nWithout getting religious about it, the text also makes it quite\nplain that death is not a terminus; so, not in anyway to diminish the\ngrimness of the Flood, nor to shy away from the \"Anti-christ\" aspects\nof Severian; but still--who weeps for the countless krill eaten by\nthe whale?\n\nAgain, we are talking about a fiction. The best fiction involves\nConflict. Tragedies involve Suffering and Sacrifice. Utopias are\ninherently Boring. Easy Solutions are Not Satisfying.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "1999-04-03T19:19:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Adam and Atom", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 4-1-99 mantis wrote:\n\n" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Without getting religious about it, the text also makes it quite\nplain that death is not a terminus; so, not in anyway to diminish the\ngrimness of the Flood, nor to shy away from the \"Anti-christ\" aspects\nof Severian; but still--who weeps for the countless krill eaten by\nthe whale?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, we are talking about a fiction. The best fiction involves\nConflict. Tragedies involve Suffering and Sacrifice. Utopias are\ninherently Boring. Easy Solutions are Not Satisfying.<<\n\n Thanks for your response. I wasn't looking for a happily-ever-after\nending. It's just that, once the god-like powers of the agents of Yesod over\nspace and time that are postulated in the texts are granted, then almost\nanything is possible. Severian pines for Thecla throughout the Urth cycle.\nDeath is no obstacle, as you say. He can have her, as an eidolon, as she was\nat his \"trial\" and as he himself becomes. He can go back and save and know\nhis mother. He can have things any way he wants, apparently just because\nhe's \"special\". If the agents of Yesod were unwilling (but certainly able)\nto do those things for Severian, he, at the pinnacle of his powers brought\nby the New Sun, was able to do it for himself. He can work miracles. He can\nwalk the Corridors of Time. So why doesn't he? He, conveniently for Wolfe,\nnever seems to think of these things.\n\n The Hierodules bow down to Severian. Why? He wouldn't even be on my long\nlist of candidates for world savior. The only reason given in the text is\nhis \"perfect memory\". When did that become a criterion for saviors, much\nless the supreme one? Severian is a thoroughly despicable lout, cruel,\ncallous, stupid, woefully ignorant, a murderer, and has the morals of a dog.\nEata was a better man; he could rise above his upbringing and leave it\nbehind. Severian never does. Jonas was a better man, and he wasn't even a\nman. Severian is blown about like a tumbleweed all through the Urth cycle,\nseldom in control of his own life for any length of time, a perpetual victim\nof circumstances. In that, he is very like Green of _There Are Doors_, but\nwithout Green's innocence.\n\nRoy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1999-04-04T01:40:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Adam and Atom", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 3, 7:19pm, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n The Hierodules bow down to Severian. Why? He wouldn't even be on my long\nlist of candidates for world savior. The only reason given in the text is\nhis \"perfect memory\". When did that become a criterion for saviors, much\nless the supreme one? Severian is a thoroughly despicable lout, cruel,\ncallous, stupid, woefully ignorant, a murderer, and has the morals of a dog.\nEata was a better man; he could rise above his upbringing and leave it\nbehind. Severian never does. Jonas was a better man, and he wasn't even a\nman. Severian is blown about like a tumbleweed all through the Urth cycle,\nseldom in control of his own life for any length of time, a perpetual victim\nof circumstances. In that, he is very like Green of _There Are Doors_, but\nwithout Green's innocence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tYes and no. Severian perfect saviour? Definitely not. (Hence Wolfe's\nvarious denials that Sev. is exactly a Christ figure.) But... Sure Severian\nis often a lout, and unlike Silk, the reader won't necessarily come to even\n-like- him. On the other hand, as I think PEACE and BOTNS would suggest, Wolfe\nprobably doesn't see Severian as an anti-hero, but as like a real man. In\nthis, I think there's a point--not an anti-hero, but a dark everyman. Wolfe\nprotagonists are often murderous, cold, confused, or mad--from \"Seven American\nNights\" to \"The Death of Dr. Island\" to \"The Doctor of Death Island\" to\n\"Tracking Song.\" Sure, there are innocents--Tib in \"The Eyeflash Miracles,\"\nand in a more complex but essentially innocent portrait, Silk (I very much like\nAlga's comparison to Dostoyevsky's Myshkin). But in general, Wolfe tends to\nfocus on very flawed characters. A prime example would be the man in \"The\nZiggurat.\"\n\tHowever, I don't think he means us to reject these figures--rather, to\nsee ourselves in them, with veins of dark and light. A picture of a (to sue\nthe religious terms that are relevant) sinful but redeemable man. And I think\nit's clear that there IS moral growth in Severian throughout the BOTNS. The\nfinal talk with Palaemon, in my opinion, establishes that for the pre-Urth\nSeverian, at least." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-04-05T16:59:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Adam and Atom", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 4 Apr 1999, Alex David Groce wrote:\nOn Apr 3, 7:19pm, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " The Hierodules bow down to Severian. Why? He wouldn't even be on my long\nlist of candidates for world savior. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, as I think PEACE and BOTNS would suggest, Wolfe\nprobably doesn't see Severian as an anti-hero, but as like a real man. In\nthis, I think there's a point--not an anti-hero, but a dark everyman. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You make a good case for why Wolfe would write about someone like\nSeverian, but I'm not sure it answers the question of why the Hierodules\nwould choose Severian as a savior. \n\nAre you suggesting they have a similar agenda? Perhaps Tad has a wager\nwith with Satan? \"Betcha I can even make a saint out of this guy.\" \"A\ntorturer? No way--yer on.\" \n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }