{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1496", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1496, "subject": "The Contessa", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "1999-04-07T20:00:42+00:00", "last": "1999-04-15T15:39:40+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at coredcs.com" }, "date": "1999-04-07T20:00:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Contessa", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "3) Who was the beautiful, weeping woman Sev saw in the loggia of the\nSecret House, being led away by six Praetorians? Ch. XLI, _Urth_ This\nwas\nright after resurrecting the dead assassin and right before emerging\nbehind\nthe throne. He can't recall who she is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She's the Contessa in Dr Talos's play, who relates seeing a mysterious\nfigure as she was led away by guards." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tony Ellis is quite right in stating this, but neglects to add that the\nContessa's name in Eschatology and Genesis is Carina.\n\nChange the C to K and you have Karina, a Danish variant for Katherine, so\nclearly (as I've argued before) the woman is linked to either Saint\nKatharine, patron saint of the Torturer's guild, or Catherine, Severian's\nmother. \n\nWhether you think the arrested woman is literally Katharine or Catherine, I\nlead to the individual to decide.\n\nRobert Borski" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-04-13T14:51:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Contessa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "SBear wrote:\nAnd later Roy wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Okay, I accept that the woman Sev sees being led away, as Tony Ellis\n(and mantis, in the archives) states, is in the role of the Contessa, but\nwho was she in the \"real\" world, outside the play, on the last day of Urth?\nBoth she and Sev seem to recognize each other. From where, when? If she is\nless than forty years old, as suggested by her desirability, then Sev\ncouldn't have seen her on Urth, because he has been gone that long. Why was\nshe apparently being arrested?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe she's a little older than that; could she have been born at the\nvery start of Severian's reign, for instance?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Either you two are missing the point or I am . She isn't \"in the role\nof\" the Contessa, she -is- the Contessa. She's being arrested for\nwhatever reason the Contessa was being arrested in the play (although I\nseem to recall she wasn't being arrested at all, but escorted). There's\nno suggestion that she and Severian have met before at court or\nanything: Severian specifically says that her face wasn't known to him.\n\nHe \"recognises\" her and she him because this moment has happened before\n- in the sub-reality of Dr Talos's play. That's why Severian sees in the\nContessa's eyes the recognition that they are both in \"a drama that had\nbeen played out before\", or words to that effect.\n\nI can still remember getting to this bit the first time I read Urth of\nthe New Sun, and the penny suddenly dropping. My jaw literally fell\nopen." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "1999-04-13T20:01:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: The Contessa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tony Ellis wrote:\nEither you two are missing the point or I am . She isn't \"in the role\nof\" the Contessa, she -is- the Contessa. She's being arrested for\nwhatever reason the Contessa was being arrested in the play (although I\nseem to recall she wasn't being arrested at all, but escorted). There's\nno suggestion that she and Severian have met before at court or\nanything: Severian specifically says that her face wasn't known to him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He \"recognizes\" her and she him because this moment has happened before\n- in the sub-reality of Dr Talos's play. That's why Severian sees in the\nContessa's eyes the recognition that they are both in \"a drama that had\nbeen played out before\", or words to that effect.<<\n\n You're right; escorted, not arrested, is better. Remember: Nessus is\nalready underwater, the Urth is coming to an end very quickly, and people\nknow it. So why would anyone be wasting time bothering with this woman for\nany Urthly reason? How about an Ushasly (sic?) reason?\n\n The events of the play are a parody of Urth's last day, parts of which\nSev witnesses and relates. I say parody because the play only approximates\nwhat actually happens and some of the player's roles are conflated. That the\nwoman Sev sees in the Path of Air is the play's Contessa is undoubted. But\nis that the only drama being reprised? BTW, some of the arguments made here\nwere first advanced by Robert Borski. See his 4-8-99 post. mantis has argued\nthat Catherine and Katharine are the same person.\n\n Compare the \"Contessa's\" description:\n\n\"At first I could not see her eyes, which were bent toward the floor and\nlost in her raven-dark hair.\n Then (I could not tell by what chance) she glanced up at me. Hers was a\nlovely face of that complexion called olive and as smoothly oval as an\nolive, too, with something in it that tore my heart; and though it was\nstrange to me, I had the sensation of return once again.\"\n\n With that of \"Katharine\" at the Feast:\n\n\"She was tall and slender, though not so tall nor so slender as Thecla, dark\nof complexion, dark of eye, raven of hair. Hers was such a face as I have\nnever seen elsewhere, like a pool of pure water found in the midst of a\nwood.\"\n\n Note the mirror imagery of the water (I believe this has been pointed\nout before). Could Sev be seeing his own image in her face and not realize\nit? He couldn't see his similarity to Ouen, though others could. He didn't\nrecognize his own image on coins. Also, many mirrors are oval-shaped. Dark\ncomplexion, dark eyes, raven hair; from Wolfe what more can you expect? See\nalso where Sev meets Ouen in _Citadel_.\n\n And the Contessa's line from the play (spoken to Meschia):\n\n\"If my body held a part of yours--liquescent tissue locked in my loins...\"\n\n Echoes of the conception of the White Fountain? Aka New Sun, aka\nSeverian?\n\nRoy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Dye", "address": "raster at highfiber.com" }, "date": "1999-04-14T08:15:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: The Contessa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Roy C. Lackey\" writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Note the mirror imagery of the water (I believe this has been pointed\nout before). Could Sev be seeing his own image in her face and not realize\nit? He couldn't see his similarity to Ouen, though others could. He didn't\nrecognize his own image on coins." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Minor quibble here: of *course* Sev recognizes his portrait on \"his\"\nchrisos. He posed for it! I think his denial to Hadelin is a mixture\nof (a) dry humor, (b) an unwillingness to begin a discussion which\nwould only make him sound insane, and (c) a deliberate echo of Graves's\n_Claudius_the_God_.\n\nraster at highfiber.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-04-15T15:39:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: The Contessa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:\n Compare the \"Contessa's\" description:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " ...With that of \"Katharine\" at the Feast:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The similarities are certainly suggestive. But if Severian can give us that vivid\ndescription of Katherine, how could he say of the Contessa \"her face was not known\nto me\" if she was the same woman?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Robert Borski wrote:\nRe: Roy's identification of the Carina the Contessa as Catherine. Here, on\nthe other hand, I think Roy's arguments are most sound and parallel my own.\nKarina, after all, is Danish for Katherine--surely this is no coincidence,\neh Tony Ellis?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Robert was kind enough to quote me his reference for this Carina = Catherine\nidentification, and, ingrate that I am, I have to say I find it pretty tenuous. It\ngoes:\n Carina = Karina = variation on Karen = Danish form of Katherine\nNone of the Danish Name sites I found on the Web (of which there are a surprising\nnumber) made even this second-hand association.\n\nHmmm. Sorry guys, but I remain skeptical. :-)" } ] } ] }