Subject: (urth) The Contessa

From: Robert Borski <rborski at coredcs.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 20:00:42 +0000

> > 3) Who was the beautiful, weeping woman Sev saw in the loggia of the
> > Secret House, being led away by six Praetorians? Ch. XLI, _Urth_ This
was
> > right after resurrecting the dead assassin and right before emerging
behind
> > the throne. He can't recall who she is.

> She's the Contessa in Dr Talos's play, who relates seeing a mysterious
> figure as she was led away by guards.

Tony Ellis is quite right in stating this, but neglects to add that the
Contessa's name in Eschatology and Genesis is Carina.

Change the C to K and you have Karina, a Danish variant for Katherine, so
clearly (as I've argued before) the woman is linked to either Saint
Katharine, patron saint of the Torturer's guild, or Catherine, Severian's
mother. 

Whether you think the arrested woman is literally Katharine or Catherine, I
lead to the individual to decide.

Robert Borski

*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

---

From: Tony Ellis <tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:51:23 +0000

SBear wrote:

> And later Roy wrote:
>
> >    Okay, I accept that the woman Sev sees being led away, as Tony Ellis
> >(and mantis, in the archives) states, is in the role of the Contessa, but
> >who was she in the "real" world, outside the play, on the last day of Urth?
> >Both she and Sev seem to recognize each other. From where, when? If she is
> >less than forty years old, as suggested by her desirability, then Sev
> >couldn't have seen her on Urth, because he has been gone that long. Why was
> >she apparently being arrested?
>
> Maybe she's a little older than that; could she have been born at the
> very start of Severian's reign, for instance?
>
Either you two are missing the point or I am <g>. She isn't "in the role
of" the Contessa, she -is- the Contessa. She's being arrested for
whatever reason the Contessa was being arrested in the play (although I
seem to recall she wasn't being arrested at all, but escorted). There's
no suggestion that she and Severian have met before at court or
anything: Severian specifically says that her face wasn't known to him.

He "recognises" her and she him because this moment has happened before
- in the sub-reality of Dr Talos's play. That's why Severian sees in the
Contessa's eyes the recognition that they are both in "a drama that had
been played out before", or words to that effect.

I can still remember getting to this bit the first time I read Urth of
the New Sun, and the penny suddenly dropping. My jaw literally fell
open.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:01:27 +0000

of" the Contessa, she -is- the Contessa. She's being arrested for
whatever reason the Contessa was being arrested in the play (although I
seem to recall she wasn't being arrested at all, but escorted). There's
no suggestion that she and Severian have met before at court or
anything: Severian specifically says that her face wasn't known to him.
He "recognizes" her and she him because this moment has happened before
- in the sub-reality of Dr Talos's play. That's why Severian sees in the
Contessa's eyes the recognition that they are both in "a drama that had
been played out before", or words to that effect.<<

    You're right; escorted, not arrested, is better. Remember: Nessus is
already underwater, the Urth is coming to an end very quickly, and people
know it. So why would anyone be wasting time bothering with this woman for
any Urthly reason? How about an Ushasly (sic?) reason?

    The events of the play are a parody of Urth's last day, parts of which
Sev witnesses and relates. I say parody because the play only approximates
what actually happens and some of the player's roles are conflated. That the
woman Sev sees in the Path of Air is the play's Contessa is undoubted. But
is that the only drama being reprised? BTW, some of the arguments made here
were first advanced by Robert Borski. See his 4-8-99 post. mantis has argued
that Catherine and Katharine are the same person.

    Compare the "Contessa's" description:

"At first I could not see her eyes, which were bent toward the floor and
lost in her raven-dark hair.
    Then (I could not tell by what chance) she glanced up at me. Hers was a
lovely face of that complexion called olive and as smoothly oval as an
olive, too, with something in it that tore my heart; and though it was
strange to me, I had the sensation of return once again."

    With that of "Katharine" at the Feast:

"She was tall and slender, though not so tall nor so slender as Thecla, dark
of complexion, dark of eye, raven of hair. Hers was such a face as I have
never seen elsewhere, like a pool of pure water found in the midst of a
wood."

    Note the mirror imagery of the water (I believe this has been pointed
out before). Could Sev be seeing his own image in her face and not realize
it? He couldn't see his similarity to Ouen, though others could. He didn't
recognize his own image on coins. Also, many mirrors are oval-shaped. Dark
complexion, dark eyes, raven hair; from Wolfe what more can you expect? See
also where Sev meets Ouen in _Citadel_.

    And the Contessa's line from the play (spoken to Meschia):

"If my body held a part of yours--liquescent tissue locked in my loins..."

    Echoes of the conception of the White Fountain? Aka New Sun, aka
Severian?

Roy

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From: Charles Dye <raster at highfiber.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:15:14 +0000

"Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net> writes:

>recognize his own image on coins.

Minor quibble here:  of *course* Sev recognizes his portrait on "his"
chrisos.  He posed for it!  I think his denial to Hadelin is a mixture
of (a) dry humor, (b) an unwillingness to begin a discussion which
would only make him sound insane, and (c) a deliberate echo of Graves's
_Claudius_the_God_.

raster at highfiber.com

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From: Tony Ellis <tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:39:40 +0000

>     Compare the "Contessa's" description:

<snip>

>     ...With that of "Katharine" at the Feast:

The similarities are certainly suggestive. But if Severian can give us that vivid
description of  Katherine, how could he say of the Contessa "her face was not known
to me" if she was the same woman?

And Robert Borski wrote:

> Re: Roy's identification of the Carina the Contessa as Catherine. Here, on
> the other hand, I think Roy's arguments are most sound and parallel my own.
> Karina, after all, is Danish for Katherine--surely this is no coincidence,
> eh Tony Ellis?

Robert was kind enough to quote me his reference for this Carina = Catherine
identification, and, ingrate that I am, I have to say I find it pretty tenuous. It
goes:
    Carina = Karina = variation on Karen = Danish form of Katherine
None of the Danish Name sites I found on the Web (of which there are a surprising
number) made even this second-hand association.

Hmmm. Sorry guys, but I remain skeptical. :-)