{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1531",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 1531,
    "subject": "All You Zombies...Re: (urth) Re: When Did You Last See Your Father?",
    "messages": 2,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "1999-04-13T10:48:59+00:00",
    "last": "1999-04-13T11:54:22+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0025-0073@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Mitchell A. Bailey",
        "address": "mab at lindau.net"
      },
      "date": "1999-04-13T10:48:59+00:00",
      "subject": "All You Zombies...Re: (urth) Re: When Did You Last See Your Father?",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Kieran Cleary wrote:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "she is Catherine, his mother, then it all comes full circle. The\nchild in the basket was his mother.<"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "I like that as a possibility, but for this to work, Catherine needs to get\nwhipped back through the corridoors of time in order to meet Oeuen (sp?) so\nthat she can conceive Sev. What's the rationale for this time travelling?\n\nAlso, Sev's mother was supposed to be an exultant Pelerine? Whence the\nexultant genes if her mother was Dorcas and father Sev himself?\n\nKieran"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "...\nAnd Dorcas' first child Ouen, in whose childbirth (? or infancy, at\nleast) she died the first time, apparently was Sev's father! \n\nIf we buy the idea that the new baby is Catherine, Sev becomes one of\nthose  \"All You Zombies..\" type casualty-loop casualties with no\nancestry and no beginning! \n\nConsider what Dr. Talos said of Baldanders when he obtained his audience\nwith the newly seated Autarch Severian in the Citadel: \" But Baldanders\nwas his own creation; he stood behind himself, and cut himself off from\nthe line linking the rest of us with the Increate.\" Could the same, in\nthis scenario, be said of Severian? \n\nRecall previous discussions about parallels of episodes in Severian's\nadventures with the life of Christ (e.g. the Temptation, Typhon as\nTempter). Could this be the parallel to the Virgin Birth? \n\nSavior, or Devil?"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0025-0075@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Mitchell A. Bailey",
        "address": "mab at lindau.net"
      },
      "date": "1999-04-13T11:54:22+00:00",
      "subject": "Re: All You Zombies...Re: (urth) Re: When Did You Last See Your Father?",
      "in_reply_to": "<urth-v0025-0073@digest.urth.net>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Mitchell A. Bailey wrote:\n\nKieran Cleary wrote:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "...The"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "child in the basket was his mother.<\n\nI like that as a possibility, but for this to work, Catherine needs to get\nwhipped back through the corridoors of time in order to meet Oeuen (sp?) so\nthat she can conceive Sev...."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "If we buy the idea that the new baby is Catherine, Sev becomes one of\nthose  \"All You Zombies..\" type casualty-loop casualties with no\nancestry and no beginning!"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "..."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Recall previous discussions about parallels of episodes in Severian's\nadventures with the life of Christ (e.g. the Temptation, Typhon as\nTempter). Could this be the parallel to the Virgin Birth?"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "...\n\nWhoops! This is what I get for getting impulsive just before\nstaff-meeting time. I realize that the idea is still at this point full\nof holes in that Sev would need to be the sole ancestor of Dorcas and\n\"Charon\" [Dorcas' brokenhearted elderly widower in the boat dragging the\nLake of Birds in the Garden of Endless Sleep, Sev's grandfather] and in\nturn their ancestors. \nHeinlein, you will recall, solved the dilemma in \"All You Zombies..\"\nwith a very rare hermaphroditism/sex change(call it Tieresias'\nSyndrome?), but of course the protagonist came from nowhere anyway, so\nwhy not?\n\nPerhaps if it can be shown that all Sev's male ancestors were ultimately\nhimself, he could still have one or more female ancestors, e.g. Dorcas,\nand the Casualty-Loop=Miraculous-Conception model might still hold,\nsince of course the Virgin Mary came of a conventional ancestry. \n\nAny clues re \"Charon's\" parents?"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}