{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1560", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1560, "subject": "Ascians and Ava", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1999-04-21T14:04:22+00:00", "last": "1999-04-21T23:11:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "1999-04-21T14:04:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ascians and Ava", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not so long ago there was talk of how Wolfe \"goes Orwell\" in the language\nof the Ascians; and how Wolfe then goes beyond that by strongly suggesting\n(via translation) that the Ascians get around such rigid mind control and\ntell stories (i.e., they use language for the \"frivilous\" reasons rejected\nby the First Empire, for which the Empire =perhaps= was doomed); that is to\nsay, the Ascians are human, too.\n\nAt around the same area of the text, there is the discussion between\nSeverian and postulant Ava. Ava talks about how the pelerines even heal\nbutterflies, etc. . . . yet they don't consider the Ascians human. IIRC.\n\nThis comes as something of a surprise to Severian (and I assume to the\nfirst time reader, too). And Severian, a torturer-in-recovery, knows that\nthey are human: so this is some kind of sign that Severian has spiritually\nevolved, etc.\n\nWe can side with Ava, and think \"Godless communist Ascians are something\nless than human.\"\n\nOr we can side with Severian, that the Ascians are human, and cannot be\nkilled in the guilt-free manner that butchers kill cattle or dwarves kill\norcs.\n\nBut there's a harsher side to the whole exchange. Because even though\nneither one knows it, the Conciliator has returned to the Order founded in\nhis name, upon his relic, and he has found it quite in error. And the next\nthing you know, the order has been destroyed on the battlefield,\nnever to rise again.\n\nJust a coincidence?\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1999-04-21T23:11:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Ascians and Ava", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 21, 2:04pm, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nSubject: (urth) Ascians and Ava\nNot so long ago there was talk of how Wolfe \"goes Orwell\" in the language\nof the Ascians; and how Wolfe then goes beyond that by strongly suggesting\n(via translation) that the Ascians get around such rigid mind control and\ntell stories (i.e., they use language for the \"frivilous\" reasons rejected\nby the First Empire, for which the Empire =perhaps= was doomed); that is to\nsay, the Ascians are human, too.\n\nAt around the same area of the text, there is the discussion between\nSeverian and postulant Ava. Ava talks about how the pelerines even heal\nbutterflies, etc. . . . yet they don't consider the Ascians human. IIRC.\n\nThis comes as something of a surprise to Severian (and I assume to the\nfirst time reader, too). And Severian, a torturer-in-recovery, knows that\nthey are human: so this is some kind of sign that Severian has spiritually\nevolved, etc.\n\nWe can side with Ava, and think \"Godless communist Ascians are something\nless than human.\"\n\nOr we can side with Severian, that the Ascians are human, and cannot be\nkilled in the guilt-free manner that butchers kill cattle or dwarves kill\norcs.\n\nBut there's a harsher side to the whole exchange. Because even though\nneither one knows it, the Conciliator has returned to the Order founded in\nhis name, upon his relic, and he has found it quite in error. And the next\nthing you know, the order has been destroyed on the battlefield,\nnever to rise again.\n\nJust a coincidence?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tHmmm...\n\tAlso interesting to note that realizing the Ascians are human doesn't\nprevent Severian from carrying on the war against them. In fact, it would seem\na further justification of the war in one sense--they are human, but surely\nliving stunted lives under the domination of Abaia & co. I'll have to say that\ndespite the recent discussions, and bearing in mind the way the New Sun's\narrival must seem to the drowned, the \"entropy gang\" just doesn't arouse much\nsympathy in me. Whatever their flaws, the Hieros are good guy enough.\n\tThe war against the Ascians seems to tie in with the Chestertonian (and\nolder, of course, but he expressed it well) idea that you can only punish a\ncriminal if you respect his humanity enough to view his action as wrong---adn\nthat in some cases not to punish is the worst insult to a man of all." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] } ] }